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Post by JeffCross on Jul 11, 2016 10:43:42 GMT -6
sadly no, I had to make up a shard color... but there should be a permanent upgrade shard, like they had in AoS, I just don't know what color it will be lol. You mean like "Relics"/"Ability Souls", then? yes
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Post by genemag on Jul 15, 2016 5:43:28 GMT -6
...I'm surprised most of the discussion here is based on fighting games as a template for command inputs.
I'd argue that using fighting game-style inputs don't match an Igavania in that there is ZERO platforming involved in fighting games. - In a fighting game, you ALWAYS face your opponent. Having enemies in all directions in a platformer means doubling the amount of scenarios for the player to consider, and you have a 50-50 chance of attacking in the wrong direction. - Doing fighting game-style command inputs means you can only execute them while standing in place, especially for inputs more complicated than QCF. The time required to input commands also means that you can rarely use those inputs while airborne; you've landed by the time you finish the input, and may get anim-canceled from the landing. - Command inputs will conflict with platforming inputs. Attempting to do complicated dodges while attacking (as with most action-platformers) may trigger unwanted command inputs. And as you guys have played SotN, I'm 100% sure that's happened to you, with Dark Metamorphosis being the spell most oftenly called by accident.
That said, there's a lot of side-scrolling action-platformers that are worth looking at as potential inspiration.
Megaman Zero series - Z-saber's third blow can be altered depending on the direction your dpad is held. - Downward/Upward attacks vary greatly based on which of the four weapons you have equipped. - Charged attacks by holding the attack button - Directional attacks can double as platforming moves (pogo, grapple, etc.)
Guacamelee - There's a dedicated special attack button with basic directional input. The special attacks double as platforming moves, making them useful outside of combat.
Muramasa/Odin Sphere Leifthrasir - Holding down the attack button serves a double purpose. Keeping it held raises your shield for blocking. Pressing the d-pad while the button is held calls a dash attack instead of a basic attack. And in Odin Sphere's case, holding down while holding attack prepares a charged attack. - Most of the combo moves changes the player's position, so the choice of which attack to use is based on both the enemy actions and your position on the map. - You can map special attacks to command inputs (either square and circle.) This level of customization also helps avoid accidental inputs as you choose which dpad combo works for you.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 15, 2016 12:42:13 GMT -6
...I'm surprised most of the discussion here is based on fighting games as a template for command inputs. I'd argue that using fighting game-style inputs don't match an Igavania in that there is ZERO platforming involved in fighting games. - In a fighting game, you ALWAYS face your opponent. Having enemies in all directions in a platformer means doubling the amount of scenarios for the player to consider, and you have a 50-50 chance of attacking in the wrong direction.- Doing fighting game-style command inputs means you can only execute them while standing in place, especially for inputs more complicated than QCF. The time required to input commands also means that you can rarely use those inputs while airborne; you've landed by the time you finish the input, and may get anim-canceled from the landing. - Command inputs will conflict with platforming inputs. Attempting to do complicated dodges while attacking (as with most action-platformers) may trigger unwanted command inputs. And as you guys have played SotN, I'm 100% sure that's happened to you, with Dark Metamorphosis being the spell most oftenly called by accident. That said, there's a lot of side-scrolling action-platformers that are worth looking at as potential inspiration. Megaman Zero series- Z-saber's third blow can be altered depending on the direction your dpad is held. - Downward/Upward attacks vary greatly based on which of the four weapons you have equipped. - Charged attacks by holding the attack button - Directional attacks can double as platforming moves (pogo, grapple, etc.) Guacamelee- There's a dedicated special attack button with basic directional input. The special attacks double as platforming moves, making them useful outside of combat. Muramasa/Odin Sphere Leifthrasir
- Holding down the attack button serves a double purpose. Keeping it held raises your shield for blocking. Pressing the d-pad while the button is held calls a dash attack instead of a basic attack. And in Odin Sphere's case, holding down while holding attack prepares a charged attack. - Most of the combo moves changes the player's position, so the choice of which attack to use is based on both the enemy actions and your position on the map. - You can map special attacks to command inputs (either square and circle.) This level of customization also helps avoid accidental inputs as you choose which dpad combo works for you. I think that is why Alucard turned so slowly (though I could be completely wrong about this lol)... That is why I believe most of the spells were not directional based in SotN, when you did the spells correctly most of them covered a whole area. Now the other problems with those inputs, I do agree with your point... I think there should be some in air spells, or at least some "spells" you can do in air. And those "accidental" spells (though to be fair, the only spell this was accidentally activated with was soul steal) could be fixed with simpler inputs... and that seems like that is what most people want. Now I do see what you mean with the "side-scrolling action-platformers" movements and those suggestions would be awesome but I think it would drastically change the mechanics of the game and as such it would no longer be a castlevania game... though I think it would be a cool game, it would not be what Iga was going for or what his backers paid for. Actually I love each and ever one of those games you mentioned but as I said before they won't feel like castlevanias (all except the pogo thing which is a staple for the game). As its been stated before, these special attacks are not for everybody, and I understand that, and the players really don't need to learn these spells to beat the game. I just think it would be an awesome addition to Bloodstained.
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genemag
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Post by genemag on Jul 15, 2016 14:36:26 GMT -6
I think that is why Alucard turned so slowly (though I could be completely wrong about this lol)... That is why I believe most of the spells were not directional based in SotN, when you did the spells correctly most of them covered a whole area. Now the other problems with those inputs, I do agree with your point... I think there should be some in air spells, or at least some "spells" you can do in air. And those "accidental" spells (though to be fair, the only spell this was accidentally activated with was soul steal) could be fixed with simpler inputs... and that seems like that is what most people want. Now I do see what you mean with the "side-scrolling action-platformers" movements and those suggestions would be awesome but I think it would drastically change the mechanics of the game and as such it would no longer be a castlevania game... though I think it would be a cool game, it would not be what Iga was going for or what his backers paid for. Actually I love each and ever one of those games you mentioned but as I said before they won't feel like castlevanias (all except the pogo thing which is a staple for the game). As its been stated before, these special attacks are not for everybody, and I understand that, and the players really don't need to learn these spells to beat the game. I just think it would be an awesome addition to Bloodstained. Aye. Personally I don't really want a combo system in Bloodstained either, as this conflicts with the exploration aspect of the game. I just want to have a more apples to apples comparison of systems, since fighting games have very different design factors to consider compared to an action platformer. Trying to fit fighting game sensibilities into an Igavania makes no sense. It's better to study how specials are implemented in other platformers, and figure out why they work for the game they're used in. Extensive combo systems will always cause the game to be split into exploration and combat segments simply because it forces the focus on beating enemies instead of seeing enemies as part of the level design (see: Devil May Cry, God of War, Odin Sphere, CV:Lords of Shadow, CV:Mirror of Fate, etc. ) Games with soft combo systems have worked pretty well (Megaman Zero/ZX, Salt and Sanctuary, CV:Order of Ecclesia,) and is something I wish to see in Bloodstained. Of course some games with no combo system can work (Shovel Knight, Shantae) but won't feel as rewarding for an Igavania.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 15, 2016 14:51:53 GMT -6
I think that is why Alucard turned so slowly (though I could be completely wrong about this lol)... That is why I believe most of the spells were not directional based in SotN, when you did the spells correctly most of them covered a whole area. Now the other problems with those inputs, I do agree with your point... I think there should be some in air spells, or at least some "spells" you can do in air. And those "accidental" spells (though to be fair, the only spell this was accidentally activated with was soul steal) could be fixed with simpler inputs... and that seems like that is what most people want. Now I do see what you mean with the "side-scrolling action-platformers" movements and those suggestions would be awesome but I think it would drastically change the mechanics of the game and as such it would no longer be a castlevania game... though I think it would be a cool game, it would not be what Iga was going for or what his backers paid for. Actually I love each and ever one of those games you mentioned but as I said before they won't feel like castlevanias (all except the pogo thing which is a staple for the game). As its been stated before, these special attacks are not for everybody, and I understand that, and the players really don't need to learn these spells to beat the game. I just think it would be an awesome addition to Bloodstained. Aye. Personally I don't really want a combo system in Bloodstained either, as this conflicts with the exploration aspect of the game. I just want to have a more apples to apples comparison of systems, since fighting games have very different design factors to consider compared to an action platformer. Trying to fit fighting game sensibilities into an Igavania makes no sense. It's better to study how specials are implemented in other platformers, and figure out why they work for the game they're used in. Extensive combo systems will always cause the game to be split into exploration and combat segments simply because it forces the focus on beating enemies instead of seeing enemies as part of the level design (see: Devil May Cry, God of War, Odin Sphere, CV:Lords of Shadow, CV:Mirror of Fate, etc. ) Games with soft combo systems have worked pretty well (Megaman Zero/ZX, Salt and Sanctuary, CV:Order of Ecclesia,) and is something I wish to see in Bloodstained. Of course some games with no combo system can work (Shovel Knight, Shantae) but won't feel as rewarding for an Igavania. wait do you mean combo systems as in "1-2 hit" or button combinations? if it is the first Iga alrady said he has no intention of implement this... though if you are talking about the second part, SotN had no problem with this... it was always about exploring and discovering what is out there and what special abilities you, items, forms and familiars had. that was a way of exploring too IMO, I used the spells constantly (especially soul steal to get life from immortal objects lol)... so I don't see it taking away from the game's exploration in any way. but again this is my opinion.
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genemag
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Post by genemag on Jul 15, 2016 15:17:31 GMT -6
wait do you mean combo systems as in "1-2 hit" or button combinations? if it is the first Iga alrady said he has no intention of implement this... though if you are talking about the second part, SotN had no problem with this... it was always about exploring and discovering what is out there and what special abilities you, items, forms and familiars had. that was a way of exploring too IMO, I used the spells constantly (especially soul steal to get life from immortal objects lol)... so I don't see it taking away from the game's exploration in any way. but again this is my opinion. More on button combos. The problem isn't having specials at all, but the implementation via fighting game-style command inputs. Those just require too much platforming space, too much time to input the button combinations, and not 100% guaranteed to input them correctly in the heat of battle. And remember that SotN was designed with the PS1 digital controller. After over a decade of videogames, we've gained new input conventions and our controllers now have additional inputs that we can use which are way more intuitive. (Touchpad for Vita/3DS, analog sticks that could be used as hotkeys instead of redundant movement inputs, quick-access menus like in Kingdom Hearts, Metal Gear Solid, FFXIV, etc.) Again, it's not the specials, but the kinds of inputs we use to execute them that I'm concerned with.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 15, 2016 17:23:12 GMT -6
wait do you mean combo systems as in "1-2 hit" or button combinations? if it is the first Iga alrady said he has no intention of implement this... though if you are talking about the second part, SotN had no problem with this... it was always about exploring and discovering what is out there and what special abilities you, items, forms and familiars had. that was a way of exploring too IMO, I used the spells constantly (especially soul steal to get life from immortal objects lol)... so I don't see it taking away from the game's exploration in any way. but again this is my opinion. More on button combos. The problem isn't having specials at all, but the implementation via fighting game-style command inputs. Those just require too much platforming space, too much time to input the button combinations, and not 100% guaranteed to input them correctly in the heat of battle. And remember that SotN was designed with the PS1 digital controller. After over a decade of videogames, we've gained new input conventions and our controllers now have additional inputs that we can use which are way more intuitive. (Touchpad for Vita/3DS, analog sticks that could be used as hotkeys instead of redundant movement inputs, quick-access menus like in Kingdom Hearts, Metal Gear Solid, FFXIV, etc.) Again, it's not the specials, but the kinds of inputs we use to execute them that I'm concerned with. Ok. thank you for clearing that up... and again I see your point, but if you change the spells and special attacks to different command inputs (like... quick-time buttons viva Kingdom Hearts) it again would not be castlevania... and that is what Iga is trying to recapture. But those are awesome suggestions, I personally would not be opposed to having some weapons having quick-time types of inputs. In truth I never really used those inputs during battle... well maybe soul steal on Granfaloon but that was a really slow boss. Plus, as you've said, we have come along way with controls. Maybe the the inputs will be more responsive this time around. Oh and what do you mean about platforming space?
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Post by genemag on Jul 15, 2016 17:50:12 GMT -6
Ok. thank you for clearing that up... and again I see your point, but if you change the spells and special attacks to different command inputs (like... quick-time buttons viva Kingdom Hearts) it again would not be castlevania... and that is what Iga is trying to recapture. But those are awesome suggestions, I personally would not be opposed to having some weapons having quick-time types of inputs. In truth I never really used those inputs during battle... well maybe soul steal on Granfaloon but that was a really slow boss. Plus, as you've said, we have come along way with controls. Maybe the the inputs will be more responsive this time around. Oh and what do you mean about platforming space? When you're using the directional buttons for the command inputs, your character moves around. You'll need a wide-enough platform and enough clearance around you to make sure you don't do an unwanted action. In areas like the Marble Gallery, or the Colosseum, or the Underground Caverns, or the Clock Tower (the list goes on,) the only spell that's safe to cast is summon spirit. Most other spell inputs moved Alucard so much that it's easy to trip off a ledge, or hit a wall, or touch a standing enemy. Basically the idea of spell inputs weren't designed to work with several of the game's levels.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 15, 2016 18:15:54 GMT -6
Ok. thank you for clearing that up... and again I see your point, but if you change the spells and special attacks to different command inputs (like... quick-time buttons viva Kingdom Hearts) it again would not be castlevania... and that is what Iga is trying to recapture. But those are awesome suggestions, I personally would not be opposed to having some weapons having quick-time types of inputs. In truth I never really used those inputs during battle... well maybe soul steal on Granfaloon but that was a really slow boss. Plus, as you've said, we have come along way with controls. Maybe the the inputs will be more responsive this time around. Oh and what do you mean about platforming space? When you're using the directional buttons for the command inputs, your character moves around. You'll need a wide-enough platform and enough clearance around you to make sure you don't do an unwanted action. In areas like the Marble Gallery, or the Colosseum, or the Underground Caverns, or the Clock Tower (the list goes on,) the only spell that's safe to cast is summon spirit. Most other spell inputs moved Alucard so much that it's easy to trip off a ledge, or hit a wall, or touch a standing enemy. Basically the idea of spell inputs weren't designed to work with several of the game's levels. Well those spells were not made for those areas anyway and if a player did try to use it for those areas then they usually paid for it. And as I have said before players did not need to use them... Iga designed around the inputs so the players did not NEED them. None of the spells were needed to have fun in the game but for those that liked them we had them. Right now we are really going round and round on this topic, if you don't like the inputs system I understand. It's cool, if they do put them in, then don't use them. It will be like they are not there. But if you do want them and they and they put them in it will be awesome. Again I know what you mean about different "platform" specific inputs, I do think some of them would be cool but I still think it would change the core gameplay too much. I think you should make a thread about that though. This was a good conversation though I had fun
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 19, 2016 13:04:44 GMT -6
The distance you travel during rolling the pad from one direction to the other is probably at most about the width of Alucard's sprite in either direction, and I don't think there's a platform in the game smaller than that. I don't see that part as a problem. I think I could do Soul Steal on the planks in the cathedral bell towers as well as anywhere.
I also never had this issue come up with Dark Metamorphosis happening while I was platforming or attacking. That's a perfect storm of accidental inputs for that to happen...rolling 180 degrees upward on the pad while also hitting attack/jump. I'm almost certain actions were overlapping and otherwise more difficult due to how inputs were read, though. Ironing that out would solve most issues with this, and there are some other ideas like a relic specifically for simpler/intuitive spell use that also allows them to be used in the air, but consumes an accessory slot.
Like, instead of buffs from a Moonstone or whatnot, you can now use up+Y for Soul Steal even while you're in the air. Could provide new mobility options, even.
Anyway, one good point in all this though is in the tenseness of a situation. If you're in a level where you're crowded by enemies, you may not want to risk getting out a Soul Steal. This may be the old guy "back in my day" sensibilities speaking, but that seemed to actually enhance the experience or be an intentional choice. Were Soul Steal executed with a single direction/button whenever, Medusa heads filling the screen would have been at no point any sort of threatening. Any sort of challenging monster-based level design would have been trivialized (even more than already, lol SotN). Heck, long as you had the MP for it, you could have more often abused the invincibility of Hellfire's teleport to similarly get you out of trouble.
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JeffCross
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 19, 2016 20:59:29 GMT -6
The distance you travel during rolling the pad from one direction to the other is probably at most about the width of Alucard's sprite in either direction, and I don't think there's a platform in the game smaller than that. I don't see that part as a problem. I think I could do Soul Steal on the planks in the cathedral bell towers as well as anywhere. I also never had this issue come up with Dark Metamorphosis happening while I was platforming or attacking. That's a perfect storm of accidental inputs for that to happen...rolling 180 degrees upward on the pad while also hitting attack/jump. I'm almost certain actions were overlapping and otherwise more difficult due to how inputs were read, though. Ironing that out would solve most issues with this, and there are some other ideas like a relic specifically for simpler/intuitive spell use that also allows them to be used in the air, but consumes an accessory slot. Like, instead of buffs from a Moonstone or whatnot, you can now use up+Y for Soul Steal even while you're in the air. Could provide new mobility options, even. Anyway, one good point in all this though is in the tenseness of a situation. If you're in a level where you're crowded by enemies, you may not want to risk getting out a Soul Steal. This may be the old guy "back in my day" sensibilities speaking, but that seemed to actually enhance the experience or be an intentional choice. Were Soul Steal executed with a single direction/button whenever, Medusa heads filling the screen would have been at no point any sort of threatening. Any sort of challenging monster-based level design would have been trivialized (even more than already, lol SotN). Heck, long as you had the MP for it, you could have more often abused the invincibility of Hellfire's teleport to similarly get you out of trouble. yeah I agree but instead of accessories I think it would be better to have an ability shard (you know one of those permanent ability things) one that you can program to make the spells easier or something. though I do have to admit I did accidentally do dark metamorphosis when I tried to do soul steal sometimes lol
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 20, 2016 11:17:53 GMT -6
The distance you travel during rolling the pad from one direction to the other is probably at most about the width of Alucard's sprite in either direction, and I don't think there's a platform in the game smaller than that. I don't see that part as a problem. I think I could do Soul Steal on the planks in the cathedral bell towers as well as anywhere. I also never had this issue come up with Dark Metamorphosis happening while I was platforming or attacking. That's a perfect storm of accidental inputs for that to happen...rolling 180 degrees upward on the pad while also hitting attack/jump. I'm almost certain actions were overlapping and otherwise more difficult due to how inputs were read, though. Ironing that out would solve most issues with this, and there are some other ideas like a relic specifically for simpler/intuitive spell use that also allows them to be used in the air, but consumes an accessory slot. Like, instead of buffs from a Moonstone or whatnot, you can now use up+Y for Soul Steal even while you're in the air. Could provide new mobility options, even. Anyway, one good point in all this though is in the tenseness of a situation. If you're in a level where you're crowded by enemies, you may not want to risk getting out a Soul Steal. This may be the old guy "back in my day" sensibilities speaking, but that seemed to actually enhance the experience or be an intentional choice. Were Soul Steal executed with a single direction/button whenever, Medusa heads filling the screen would have been at no point any sort of threatening. Any sort of challenging monster-based level design would have been trivialized (even more than already, lol SotN). Heck, long as you had the MP for it, you could have more often abused the invincibility of Hellfire's teleport to similarly get you out of trouble. yeah I agree but instead of accessories I think it would be better to have an ability shard (you know one of those permanent ability things) one that you can program to make the spells easier or something. though I do have to admit I did accidentally do dark metamorphosis when I tried to do soul steal sometimes lol Dark Metamorphosis was my favorite input spell and it's one thing I wish they'd shamelessly rip off. Glowing red, yelling " DARK METAMORPHOSIS", blood spilling on you to get life. It's just so much cool in one spell.
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Post by Galamoth on Jul 20, 2016 15:26:29 GMT -6
^Speaking of "shamelessly ripping off"...
How about that "Darkness Edge" attack that IGA originally intended to program into SotN? (It was supposed to be a special Spell for the Sword Familiar)
1:04:24 in the video.
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Post by WindsOfOsiris on Jul 20, 2016 20:57:32 GMT -6
^Speaking of "shamelessly ripping off"... How about that "Darkness Edge" attack that IGA originally intended to program into SotN? (It was supposed to be a special Spell for the Sword Familiar) 1:04:24 in the video. be sliced into pieces! and die! wow that would have been epic. im i the only one annoyed by the chick? i guess its because i know alot about the game still, some of her questions drove me insane..... dont get me started on her gameplay lol sry she just seemed not interested.
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Post by Ghostpepper on Jul 20, 2016 22:47:13 GMT -6
Well she definitely seemed interested in something, just not the game. Could feel the hormones from here lol. Maybe i'm just reading too much into her body language.
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Post by Galamoth on Jul 27, 2016 9:25:13 GMT -6
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 27, 2016 12:46:06 GMT -6
I know those of you that have played SotN, have gotten the Heaven Sword... I want more of these types of weapons in the game, when you have one, instead of swinging it you throw it and it comes back to you... the best part was when you equipped two of them and pressed the two attack buttons at the same time you get this awesome attack... I'm not good at explaining stuff so I will leave a video of it here. Now who doesn't think this is awesome Yes, but the video if anything showed me how much I love the super jump in SOTN. I love how you could make it go diagonal.
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JeffCross
Shadow of the Night
Ancient Legion
[TI0] Die monster!!!!!!
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JeffCross
[TI0] Die monster!!!!!!
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 28, 2016 5:31:24 GMT -6
sorry to be the "rain on the parade" I know people are enjoying their conversations here but aren't we getting off topic, no one has talked about attack inputs for awhile now...
well I'll start... do you guy think we will get that awesome jump that Alucard had? I wonder if it will be like Soma's, through a one button spell or will we get the down, up+jump button combo..
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BalancedHydra
Pillow Weapon Advocate
Master Alchemist
[TI1]
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BalancedHydra
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Post by BalancedHydra on Jul 28, 2016 7:13:53 GMT -6
sorry to be the "rain on the parade" I know people are enjoying their conversations here but aren't we getting off topic, no one has talked about attack inputs for awhile now... well I'll start... do you guy think we will get that awesome jump that Alucard had? I wonder if it will be like Soma's, through a one button spell or will we get the down, up+jump button combo.. Isn't the left bumper button unused? Maybe we can use that.
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purifyweirdshard
Administrator
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Calling from Heaven
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Calling from Heaven
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 28, 2016 8:19:17 GMT -6
JeffCross , yes...I was going to make that bit I brought up its own topic, but couldn't think of a good title for what it would be and if it really deserved its own place...I also didn't want to draw too much attention to my little rant. It was and certainly became its own good discussion though, so it's all now in the general Bloodstained forum.
I'll also be moving some posts that are just about weapons to the weapons thread while I'm at it. Re: the gravity boots and super jump, those are great. Miriam could even leave a nice crystalline trail behind her.
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