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Post by Goobsausage on Oct 22, 2015 14:17:29 GMT -6
"I need pictures, pictures of Naga Rider!"  The full update also links to the Super Best Friendcast episode with Mike Z (he's there the entire time, but goes quiet a lot) and videos of his 100% and pacifist runs of the prototype. There's also mention of another update later today. |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Oct 22, 2015 15:40:47 GMT -6
Naga Rider is my new favorite. Maybe we can ask the Kamen Rider community to take a look at this.  |
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Post by Scars Unseen on Oct 22, 2015 19:39:15 GMT -6
Them's Fightin' Herds(great name by the way), gets a congrats from me. Though with that campaign and this one's very slow start, it made me realize just how psychological this can be. High goals can scare people away, but what about goals that are close to being finished or are already finished? That's when the influx starts to come in. That's what I'm betting on as far as this project. The word of mouth is great, I personally made sure to help with that, but we got 24 days left and we gotta make this work. I've seen crazier things happen, but I think they can make it. Yeah, I do think that aiming high from the beginning was a mistake for this campaign. Starting at the minimum acceptable pledge for a bare bones product and then working your way up with stretch goals seems to be far more effective than trying for what you actually want from the beginning. The best campaigns(including Bloodstained) manipulate their intended audience, persuading them to increase their pledges and draw in more backers to reach that goal that they're almost at. I don't think that's a bad thing either. If the end result is everyone getting a superior product and thus a greater level of satisfaction for their pledge, then manipulating them to that end is the correct decision. Much better that than getting everyone emotionally invested and then falling short because you couldn't convince enough people to pledge in. |
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Post by crocodile on Oct 23, 2015 7:57:06 GMT -6
Them's Fightin' Herds(great name by the way), gets a congrats from me. Though with that campaign and this one's very slow start, it made me realize just how psychological this can be. High goals can scare people away, but what about goals that are close to being finished or are already finished? That's when the influx starts to come in. That's what I'm betting on as far as this project. The word of mouth is great, I personally made sure to help with that, but we got 24 days left and we gotta make this work. I've seen crazier things happen, but I think they can make it. Yeah, I do think that aiming high from the beginning was a mistake for this campaign. Starting at the minimum acceptable pledge for a bare bones product and then working your way up with stretch goals seems to be far more effective than trying for what you actually want from the beginning. The best campaigns(including Bloodstained) manipulate their intended audience, persuading them to increase their pledges and draw in more backers to reach that goal that they're almost at. I don't think that's a bad thing either. If the end result is everyone getting a superior product and thus a greater level of satisfaction for their pledge, then manipulating them to that end is the correct decision. Much better that than getting everyone emotionally invested and then falling short because you couldn't convince enough people to pledge in. With regards to setting a pared-down version of your game as a baseline, the problem is that people can often see through that. One of the main complaints of the Red Ash campaign is that everybody thought they were only getting "part of a game" at the initial funding goal. That turned A LOT of people off. Also, not all sorts of games/genres work well as being sold piecemeal or can be compartmentalized as easily. This seems like one of them. It also seems like this campaign had a lot more lore, characters, etc. already written up and planned out before launch than Bloodstained. Like we already have a backstory for like 10+ characters for this game but only 4 for Bloodstained. So I think there may have been a more complete outline for the base game as a start here. As an alternative strategy (what I thought you meant initially but I'll continue anyway since I want to make this point), if you ask for say $500k, you secretly really need $1.5 million, and then raise say $1 million (a successful campaign to most onlookers).......you don't have enough money to actually make your game/product. There have been many crowdfunding campaigns (and I imagine more in the future) that have had successful campaigns only to reveal X months to a year later - "woops we don't actually have enough money to finish our product!" which then forces a subpar product, more crowdfunding or just no product. So aside from being very dishonest, intentionally aiming low can be disastrous for both the campaigners as well as the backers. |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Oct 23, 2015 10:48:01 GMT -6
For Scars, I had to meditate on that point for a fair bit. Then I came to the realization that Crocodile came to. The danger with lowballing to snag people is that you may just end up getting the lowball or slightly higher.
Bloodstained worked because all the stretch goals were extras. Extra characters, Bigger castle, Boss Rush, 8-bit soundtrack, you name it.
Another game that might be an unfortunately example of either Scars point or Croc's point is a game that just recently succeeded after the second attempt at a kickstarter, Pixel Noir.
Their initial goal in the first one was $90,000. It had no stretch goals, had consoles already lined up as far as which get the game, and was giving you the whole product. Most likely due to the timing of the campaign, it failed. Then they came back with a much more modest goal of 30,000 with stretch goals that go up to 95,000.(This final goal was localization and was a huge step up from the mobile ports that were at 60,000)
Either they worked on it in their spare time for nothing in preparation for the second kickstarter, they re-evaluated their costs, they got a loan, or they weren't honest from the get go. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt if there's enough evidence to warrant it.
Lab Zero has an good habit of being completely transparent. That was going on with Skullgirls and it's going on now, so I don't think they are asking for this much for the sake of it.
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Post by Apollonian on Oct 23, 2015 11:19:45 GMT -6
I feel like they are one of the few kickstarters that are honest about the money situation. The outline they provided was really insightful and I doubt we are going to know much about how Iga's 5.5 mil is being spent.
If I find out he bought a castle somewhere I am getting a whip and smashing my way through that place. Livin the dream.
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Post by crocodile on Oct 25, 2015 19:45:50 GMT -6
 "Moms are tough!" |
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Post by Scars Unseen on Oct 25, 2015 20:30:30 GMT -6
I feel like they are one of the few kickstarters that are honest about the money situation. The outline they provided was really insightful and I doubt we are going to know much about how Iga's 5.5 mil is being spent. If I find out he bought a castle somewhere I am getting a whip and smashing my way through that place. Livin the dream. There's a good reason that transparency in game development is rare. Look at the amount of scorn and trash talking Star Citizen has garnered because people aren't used to seeing how the game development process actually works. Most developers don't even announce their games until they're nearly done(e.g. Fallout 4). |
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Post by Apollonian on Oct 25, 2015 21:44:44 GMT -6
I feel like they are one of the few kickstarters that are honest about the money situation. The outline they provided was really insightful and I doubt we are going to know much about how Iga's 5.5 mil is being spent. If I find out he bought a castle somewhere I am getting a whip and smashing my way through that place. Livin the dream. There's a good reason that transparency in game development is rare. Look at the amount of scorn and trash talking Star Citizen has garnered because people aren't used to seeing how the game development process actually works. Most developers don't even announce their games until they're nearly done(e.g. Fallout 4). I tried to make it clear that I am talking about transparency regarding the funds procured through kickstarter and where the money is actually going (not simply a breakdown of how much money before a stretchgoal is unlocked mind you since we have no idea how much of that money really goes to the goal). Game development being kept secret is standard and not what I am talking about, and funding for nonkickstarter games if irrelevant here as our money wouldn't be at stake. I am not familiar with Star Citizen so I would have to know whether the complaints are about the game itself or about how the funds are being spent. Can you clarify this for me? As far as the trash talking is concerned though I certainly don't see that as a real reason to keep this information a secret (regardless of what they are trash talking). They are under no obligation to be open with us (I still backed Bloodstained for 3 hundo because I assume they will not rip me off) but the problem with kickstarter funded games is that they don't really have anyone to answer to at all. In normal development studios there is a chain of command (for lack of a better term) and legally they would be at much greater risk as their investors would tear them apart if they were screwing around with the development funds. I've seen kickstarters go under several times and very little action is taken when people do get screwed over. The transparency Indivisible is showing is really nice to see and I don't see any way that it would have needed to be kept a secret. Anyone can chime in if they feel differently, I am curious if anyone thinks they shouldn't have broken it down for us. |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Oct 25, 2015 22:41:03 GMT -6
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Post by Goobsausage on Oct 25, 2015 23:42:38 GMT -6
So... two archers. Anyone else think of the Justice League episode where Elongated Man asks if the League needs his help, and Green Lantern replies with something like "We've already got Plastic Man. we don't need two stretchy guys,"? I mean, I know they're different types of archers, they have different backstories, and I trust Lab Zero to make them have different abilities and not end up like the clone characters in Smash Bros or the various Street Fighter shotos. But I can't help thinking about that one episode clip.
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Post by Metafogos on Oct 26, 2015 1:33:17 GMT -6
So... two archers. Anyone else think of the Justice League episode where Elongated Man asks if the League needs his help, and Green Lantern replies with something like "We've already got Plastic Man. we don't need two stretchy guys,"? I mean, I know they're different types of archers, they have different backstories, and I trust Lab Zero to make them have different abilities and not end up like the clone characters in Smash Bros or the various Street Fighter shotos. But I can't help thinking about that one episode clip. I think Phoebe will be more like a Hard Hitter then Zebei. She got more damage (she shoot lances!!) and Zebei will be more multi shooter and more target shooter. By the way, I don't think the Bloodstained Campaign is a "total honesty" one, mainly because the $1.5 MILLION goal (the extra boss). A lot of goals in the "castle" part is more "things we want to put in the game, but not essential, so lets make this as stretch goal to justify more money income". The extra boss is the most... 250k for a single boss? (and no.. this boss are not stated as the secret mega boss IGA for the backers...). With all things we unlocked at end, will be hardly be pinpoint who is this extra boss... mostly because the giant castle, who will need more bosses to fill it. (But i'm happy with the Bloodstained KS Stretch goals at end  ) |
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Post by Apollonian on Oct 26, 2015 4:52:30 GMT -6
lol, that is really embarrassing. I think it is funny how he would actually just casually ask them about a game he stole from them. It is like someone stealing your car and then asking you how to operate a car's sound system not knowing that you had installed a custom one which identifies them as the thief. I pirated Order of Ecclesia on Ouya actually (I own the game already of course, just wanted to see it on a tv) but that is a completely different game. It was the scrapped 5fps, slow motion, extreme button lag edition.  Metafogos: I always took their stretch goals to be a "If we get this money to make the game we will give you this little thing" kinda deal. In all honesty we have no idea (correct me if I'm wrong) how any of the funds are actually being spent and probably never will. That is one thing I really dislike about kickstarter funded games, there is a total lack of transparency and accountability with what is essentially investor money. Combine that with the fact publishers are now using it to cut their costs and you got one angry dude on your hands  Anyone remember the Red Ash thing where they got the publisher part way through and decided that all your money would then be for stretchgoals? I don't see how that didn't go against the kickstarter rules, I mean they changed the entire purpose of the project. Seems misleading to me. "Hey you are backing a game because you want to see it made right? Well we are going to make it regardless now but we are keeping your money to do other stuff. You didn't say that is what you wanted but it totally is, trust me". Luckily it wasn't funded. I understand you can withdraw before the kickstarter closes but there would have been plenty of people that didn't see that the entire project had changed. I mean who would expect that? rant over |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Oct 26, 2015 10:05:53 GMT -6
People are so flagrant and flippant and piracy these days, especially that guy. Whatever, so long as he buys it like he says, we'll just call this a small mishap and move on.
Now we have over 7,000 backers, and we're still at 31% roughly. Keep spreading this guys.
I'm not sure I'll use the spear bow incarnation, unless she turns out secretly good.
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Post by Goobsausage on Oct 26, 2015 13:44:54 GMT -6
Jim Sterling posted a video about why he vocally and financially supports crowdfunding games. A good chunk of it talks about Indivisible (and Bloodstained!), how he wants it to succeed, and praising Lab Zero for their transparency.
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Oct 28, 2015 18:32:54 GMT -6
You wanna know what's killing me? The fact that they are only NOW announcing contests like fan art, speed runs, and the like. Bloodstained was doing something like this from day one. Oh boy... labzerogames.com/indiv-igg-contests/Get cracking guys. Also, new character. Dude who throws knives, but looks friendly.  |
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Post by Goobsausage on Oct 28, 2015 19:31:21 GMT -6
I have a feeling that Lab Zero wanted some time to release a bunch of character designs and let the build be available on all platforms before doing any contests. But at the same time, seeing as how the campaign is more than halfway over I can't help but think that Lab Zero threw them together at the last minute. Which is kinda weird since Lab Zero been building an audience and making announcements for the Indivisible campaign months before it launched.
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Post by crocodile on Oct 30, 2015 15:19:55 GMT -6
In a bit of pretty huge news, the Indivisible prototype is being put up on PSN on November 3rd for PS4 console players to try. Hopefully this gives a boost to the campaign. The vast majority of people who get to play the prototype seem to love it. |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Oct 30, 2015 18:36:31 GMT -6
Not only that, I'm hoping that a good portion of the Bloodstained backers, a good portion of the 64,000+ of us, saw the news about Indivisible in the latest update and want to give it a look see. Here! |
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Post by JoJo on Oct 31, 2015 7:17:31 GMT -6
Just looked through the campaign and the video
So many cultural mix in the game, which is nice
I'm a bit confused on the pledge, $60 pledge can't give you digital version?
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Post by crocodile on Oct 31, 2015 9:05:55 GMT -6
Just looked through the campaign and the video So many cultural mix in the game, which is nice I'm a bit confused on the pledge, $60 pledge can't give you digital version? $60 gives you both a physical copy and a digital copy (plus wallpapers, a digital OST, and backer-exclusive alternate character colors) |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Nov 1, 2015 1:05:17 GMT -6
You guys ever heard of Timespinner? It's going for a Symphony of the Night with Time Travel, coupled with music that sounds like Chrono Trigger. Anyway, I found this post by one of the backers in a recent update of theirs when they were spotlighting Indivisible. It was....interesting. Allow me to quote it. "Awesome PAX experience! Glad you guys went and showed the game off; I went there two years ago to exhibit a game and it really was amazing/surreal. Such a great experience! Indivisible looks amazing! I'd love to support Lab Zero with it, but they (bafflingly) refuse to support Kickstarter. I don't know why, but I (in turn) refuse to use IndieGoGo. When they allow direct payment, I will have no problems with IGG, but while they're married to damn PayPal, they can go to Hell. And I'm sorry to every promising project that is on there (Yatagarasu, Them's Fightin' Herds, Skullgirls, now this), but I just won't bite. Paypal is one of the worst companies ever - sites love to claim you that you can just use your credit card THROUGH them and never make an account. This is patently false; they magically have dozens of errors when you try to do this, and ask that you always try again later. "Later" never comes, and it never works, forcing you instead to make an account, which always works (of course)... and now they have your info and Credit Cards on file. I hate them so much... and I'm certainly not alone. They inspire so much hate, there's literally a website called paypalsucks.com. Lifehacker puts them at no.1, ahead of guys like Verizon and Comcast, as the worst company ( lifehacker.com/5953394/five-worst-companies-for-customer-service ). So sorry to Lab Zero, and anyone else in the future looking to use Indie Go-go. It looks like their campaign stalled out over at IGG now too, and it'll be a massive shame if it doesn't make it. But I hope that, before the write it off, they consider taking their exact same campaign over to Kickstarter and doing a redo before throwing in a the towel. I would very, very, very much like to support Indivisible. I will never, ever use Paypal, or in any way make a Paypal account (vis-a-vis, give them any personal, and credit card, information) though." -Vince Vasquez |
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Post by purifyweirdsoul on Nov 2, 2015 8:19:00 GMT -6
Wow. Some people really hate PayPal. I don't really get it. Yeah, they get your credit card info, but whoever else you are buying from is getting it too and I don't really personally know of any instances where PayPal stole/misused/was breached for someone's information? All I've ever seen is random salty forum topics and people being pissed like this fellow is. Hm.
Anyway, I'm a little salty myself that Indivisible didn't mention our shotout in its last update lol. Nunja looks pretty cool though.
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Post by Metafogos on Nov 2, 2015 19:29:19 GMT -6
Sadly the Bloodstained shoutout dont get a great boost.... not get even a little boost  |
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Nov 2, 2015 23:10:22 GMT -6
Goob's right, if it were easier to upgrade your pledge on Indiegogo this would have already been overfunded and then some. I've seen campaigns with less than 8,000+ backers smash goals initial goals higher than this and then some.
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Post by Goobsausage on Nov 3, 2015 2:57:44 GMT -6
Goob's right, if it were easier to upgrade your pledge on Indiegogo this would have already been overfunded and then some. I've seen campaigns with less than 8,000+ backers smash goals initial goals higher than this and then some. It's so lame to see the campaign turn out like this. I hope this doesn't turn into a situation where Lab Zero does everything people want in an ideal campaign (transparency, established reputation, playable prototype, support from youtubers), but still fails. I didn't think using Indiegogo would be an issue since most crowdfunding traffic comes from the creators and I didn't have any issues with Paypal when I backed Skullgirls. After my whole mess with accidentally submitting money without choosing a backer tier and not being able to fix it myself, I now better understand why Indiegogo will never be as big as Kickstarter and why people don't want to deal with them (or Paypal). I've also seen a handful of comments thinking Indivisible's campaign works like most other IGG campaigns where the organizers keep all the money made if the goal isn't met and the game will still be made on a smaller scale because of that. LZ has stated this is not the case multiple times, the fixed funding means it works like Kickstarter, there will be no game if the goal is not met, and LZ as a team will be done if they fail. I think the usual selling points IGG used to establish their brand and pushed so much in the past backfired and LZ forgot to account for people with short attention spans. I think it would've helped LZ get their urgency across if they just used Kickstarter and asked for a bit more money to compensate for their cut. Hopefully things will get better and more money will come in once the prototype arrives on PS4. IIRC, it's the first time Sony's had something like that available to download. Even if the IGG campaign fails, I hope LZ sticks with it until the end instead of quitting in advance. Who knows, maybe having the prototype available will lead to Sony saving Indivisible if things don't work out. |
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Post by McDerp on Nov 3, 2015 4:27:53 GMT -6
If LZ could trust KS enough to use them to try again, I'd be all for it.
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Post by Goobsausage on Nov 3, 2015 14:48:25 GMT -6
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Post by Dragon_of_Dojima on Nov 3, 2015 15:52:19 GMT -6
Sony save Indivisible? It's possible, but that could lead into some other issues that might have plagued the Shenmue kickstarter.
I was confident that "Them's Fightin' Herds would be overfunded within the week. I was wrong.
I was confident that Indiegogo wouldn't be much of an issue at all for this campaign. I was wrong. And the reasons why I was wrong here might apply to Herds as well.
I've been following these dudes since Skullgirls was simply Fillia and Cerebella. I know a good amount of what they went through as an outsider, and most of it was tragic with a few major triumphs here and there. Though if I had one single thing I can safely say they should have NEVER done was partner with Konami as far as Skullgirls. Granted they probably helped with money and gave them easier access to Ms. Yamane, but those are small compared to how they held them back in the end. If there's at least one dude who wants these dudes to succeed, it's me.
I'm thinking the same thing, going on kickstarter and asking for a bit more money to cover the fees would have worked better. I mean, if Muv Luv can get 1 million...1. MILLION...a visual novel that's been leaked endlessly to the point where most interested have already played it, then this would have been an overwhelming success.(Also damnit, I missed that one. I would have needed like 80 bucks to get what I wanted and that just couldn't have happened at the moment)
I want to believe, but I'm losing faith. I say let the dudes who keep insisting they won't get their money back get surprised and embarrassed once they get the notification of a deposit....should this fail. ....please don't....
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Post by purifyweirdsoul on Nov 3, 2015 16:18:23 GMT -6
In conclusion, it needs an anime/waifu injection stat.
I really thought the game would perform better than it is. There are no patent issues? I mean, nothing to the point of like Red Ash or something.
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