So we've talked a lot about game mechanics and story elements, but I haven't seen much discussion on one of the most important aspects of any game let alone an Igavania. Which is the design and implementation of the User interface, or UI (GUI for the old folks) as it's more commonly known.
The UI of a game can vary greatly, but generally is the gateway which delivers essential information about the game to the player. This includes common elements like player/enemy health, lives, ammo and score. As well as menus, options, status effects and more. Any piece of information that needs to be expressed to the player falls under the UI.
The fun part is seeing how games choose to implement and display this information. And beyond that how the player may interact with said information. The interaction part actually falls under another category; UX(user experience), but for the sake of this topic I think we can lump it all together.
So what do we as a community want to see from Bloodstained? Do we want classic igavania health and magic meters? Deep menus with detailed item stats? Or would you like to see something more modern like a no HUD (heads up display) system where your health is only conveyed through fullscreen effects and animation? Should damage numbers float above enemies heads? Do you want character portraits during dialogue? We have some mockups of a few UI elements in the concept art, but nothing is final. Let's hear your ideas!
Post by wiggychiggy on Aug 5, 2015 21:12:14 GMT -6
While I am a fan of the traditional HUD, I don't think it would be detrimental to the atmosphere of the game if the design team went for either a minimal or no HUD approach. One of my all-time favorite titles is the first Dead Space game and they went in a bold new direction with real-time menus (no safety from ravenous Necromorphs within windowed menu screen now!) and no traditional HUD. Health was displayed on the back of Isaac's suit in an easy to see and understand format and your ammo counter was large and visible. I am not certain that the same concepts will apply well to Bloodstained, being an RPG, but perhaps the health and MP bars can minimize when there are no enemies onscreen or you are not using magic power. However I would love to see dynamic character portraits during dialogue. In my opinion it's really just a nice touch to see that the artists went the extra mile to make the game a more cinematic experience.
Last Edit: Aug 5, 2015 21:13:00 GMT -6 by wiggychiggy
Post by Goobsausage on Aug 5, 2015 21:28:50 GMT -6
I would like a HUD for a health bar and a tiny space in the corner to see part of the map, but I also like the idea of doing what Dead Space did where there's real-time menus where monsters can still attack you if you're not careful. Maybe there could be transparent menu backgrounds where you can see what's happening on-screen to help accommodate that.
theres a huge problem with realtime menus, they work fine for games with a very small inventory and few options, in a game like this with a huge inventory and lots of menus to go through realtime falls apart very quickly
i can however, see the merit in a quickmenu or quickhud, where you set up 2 or 3 'outfits' and switch between them in realtime, or a quickmap where you bring up a backgroundless map that displays over the action (possibly with a menu option to zoom to the surrounding 20x20 'squares' to show the surrounding rooms or show the whole map) and have these elements parented to flourishes in the corners (to make it look like a picture frame)
for instance, you have your traditional HP/MP/Status in the upper left and have a hide/show option in your start menu, whether its showing or not you still have the flourish in the corner, just not the meters. you have your 'outfits' in the lower left, and only see the flourish till you activate the menu/swap. in the lower right you have your 'menu corner', whether that entails a minimap, just the flourish, or the quickmap coming from there. <YES YES YES i want this, i check my map constantly upper right i guess would be the wild card, maybe you 'favorite' 3 use items like potion, tonic, and peanut, and then can use them with a couple presses rather than opening the full menu or quickslot spells to be cast.
it does need to be said though that while these options would greatly speed up the feel of the game, the quickitem and outfits options do have a potential for game breaking (the outfit not so much as its been implemented before, but quickfiring off high mp spells then quickuse high tonic, while an option you as a player can choose whether or not to ab/use it does need mentioning the potential pitfall of it)
and then of course you have your filligreed Iga menu screen of awesome, with its item, equip, map w/ markers, checklist, options (including hud settings), and whatever else they can fit in ^_^
Last Edit: Aug 5, 2015 22:18:49 GMT -6 by Astaroth
Satoru Iwata: "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer.” Game on Iwata-san quack
theres a huge problem with realtime menus, they work fine for games with a very small inventory and few options, in a game like this with a huge inventory and lots of menus to go through realtime falls apart very quickly
i can however, see the merit in a quickmenu or quickhud, where you set up 2 or 3 'outfits' and switch between them in realtime, or a quickmap where you bring up a backgroundless map that displays over the action (possibly with a menu option to zoom to the surrounding 20x20 'squares' to show the surrounding rooms or show the whole map) and have these elements parented to flourishes in the corners (to make it look like a picture frame)
for instance, you have your traditional HP/MP/Status in the upper left and have a hide/show option in your start menu, whether its showing or not you still have the flourish in the corner, just not the meters. you have your 'outfits' in the lower left, and only see the flourish till you activate the menu/swap. in the lower right you have your 'menu corner', whether that entails a minimap, just the flourish, or the quickmap coming from there. <YES YES YES i want this, i check my map constantly upper right i guess would be the wild card, maybe you 'favorite' 3 use items like potion, tonic, and peanut, and then can use them with a couple presses rather than opening the full menu or quickslot spells to be cast.
it does need to be said though that while these options would greatly speed up the feel of the game, the quickitem and outfits options do have a potential for game breaking (the outfit not so much as its been implemented before, but quickfiring off high mp spells then quickuse high tonic, while an option you as a player can choose whether or not to ab/use it does need mentioning the potential pitfall of it)
and then of course you have your filligreed Iga menu screen of awesome, with its item, equip, map w/ markers, checklist, options (including hud settings), and whatever else they can fit in ^_^
That is a good point you bring up about game-breaking potential with items when quickmenus. Maybe there could cooldowns/time limits on how quick you can use healing/MP restoration items, and stronger items have longer cooldowns.
However I would love to see dynamic character portraits during dialogue. In my opinion it's really just a nice touch to see that the artists went the extra mile to make the game a more cinematic experience.
i do love this, perhaps those can pop up from the lower flourishes ^_^
Satoru Iwata: "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer.” Game on Iwata-san quack
That is a good point you bring up about game-breaking potential with items when quickmenus. Maybe there could cooldowns/time limits on how quick you can use healing/MP restoration items, and stronger items have longer cooldowns.
How is using a restore potion from a quick menu anymore prone to abuse than pausing the game and using it from an item menu?
I like the idea of quick slot menus for your most commonly used/favorite items. Maybe something like the radial menu from ratchet and clank?
That is a good point you bring up about game-breaking potential with items when quickmenus. Maybe there could cooldowns/time limits on how quick you can use healing/MP restoration items, and stronger items have longer cooldowns.
How is using a restore potion from a quick menu anymore prone to abuse than pausing the game and using it from an item menu?
I like the idea of quick slot menus for your most commonly used/favorite items. Maybe something like the radial menu from ratchet and clank?
Well, when I heard quick menu, the first thing that popped into my mind was something that could be accessed instantly through shortcuts. Like the items assigned to buttons in Zelda games.
Post by purifyweirdshard on Aug 6, 2015 11:20:33 GMT -6
Still, how does that break anything or even affect the balance of things at all? I mean, it's just saving you the time of navigating the menu. The only abuse/problem comes in when you have something like the Duplicator/a way to copy items in an unintended way.
I like the classic interface. Meters, damage numbers, etc. The pause menus have been kind of plain in the past (probably more system/screen space limitation than anything, which shouldn't be a problem now), so maybe something quick, but pleasant on the eyes in that department.
How is using a restore potion from a quick menu anymore prone to abuse than pausing the game and using it from an item menu?
I like the idea of quick slot menus for your most commonly used/favorite items. Maybe something like the radial menu from ratchet and clank?
Well, when I heard quick menu, the first thing that popped into my mind was something that could be accessed instantly through shortcuts. Like the items assigned to buttons in Zelda games.
That sounds more like an "equip" slot to me than a quick menu. Anything that can be assigned to a dedicated button would most likely be something you equip. A quick menu would be the interface that allowed you to, for instance; press and hold a button to bring up a group of items that you could then quickly switch between.
Well, when I heard quick menu, the first thing that popped into my mind was something that could be accessed instantly through shortcuts. Like the items assigned to buttons in Zelda games.
That sounds more like an "equip" slot to me than a quick menu. Anything that can be assigned to a dedicated button would most likely be something you equip. A quick menu would be the interface that allowed you to, for instance; press and hold a button to bring up a group of items that you could then quickly switch between.
Huh. Must've been thinking of the wrong thing. A quick menu would be more like hotkeys, right?
essentially, what i mean by abusing quickmenus is more a pacing issue than a design issue, like you quicktrigger your mind up spell, spam your heavy attack spell and then pop a high tonic all within a few seconds, all without stopping to allow for the enemy to attack or even move, that could very easily make bosses and hard enemies trivial
if a game is designed for that playstyle (mmos usually, and it balances that with massive hp, cooldowns, and a shitton of things to cast), then its not as big a deal, but in a game where youre supposed to dodge, attack, maneuver, get in a few hits and a spell, and if you get hit enough you have to scramble to use a potion it gives weight and flow to a combat, and a feel of panic when youre at 2 hp and youre rifling through your menus looking for your potions even though youre in no actual danger of dying inside the menu, being able to hotkey salvo utterly destroys that feeling, so it is a mechanic that will have to be looked at very closely and weigh how much it will change the feel of the game, and whether that change is for the better or not
like the difference between going through SotN wih a sword and shield as opposed to duped dual bat pentagrams, the difference there though the dupe isnt an integral game component and you do have to save up to get the duplicator and grind/find two 'nuke' items, its not just handed to you at the start as part of a quickmenu
Last Edit: Aug 6, 2015 21:51:51 GMT -6 by Astaroth
Satoru Iwata: "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer.” Game on Iwata-san quack
Post by purifyweirdshard on Oct 20, 2015 7:23:06 GMT -6
Seeing the Red Bull article on the game reminded me of a related point I wanted to bring up. Didn't want to make another topic for it since I remembered this one here was a thing.
I want health and/or MP bars. Horizontal or vertical, doesn't matter, though horizontal does tend to obstruct less of the game. The actual colored bars give you a much faster indication at a glance of what your current health/available MP is, and you know instantly how much damage is done from how much was subtracted from the bar. Everything being numerical in the top left just comparatively seems...a bit too mechanical? Colorful meters just provide that old school feel we want from a game like this and are more easily seen. SotN style with numerical health and an MP bar is okay, too...I mostly just want one there lol, and can live with one of the stats being all numbers.
I don't see why there couldn't be multiple options here/the ability to auto hide the UI, but I personally wouldn't mind it just always being there either. Some games are great with the minimalist feel for immersion, others are more enjoyable when they feel more game-y. For me, this is probably one of the latter, as the genre has been in the past.
That sounds more like an "equip" slot to me than a quick menu. Anything that can be assigned to a dedicated button would most likely be something you equip. A quick menu would be the interface that allowed you to, for instance; press and hold a button to bring up a group of items that you could then quickly switch between.
Huh. Must've been thinking of the wrong thing. A quick menu would be more like hotkeys, right?
I would like quick swapping of things. Switching equipment sets with the right analog stick ala Lament of Innocence or Dragons Crown would be really handy, especially if it saves numerous trips to the menu to equip new weapons because x enemy is only vulnerable to y element. As much as I loved the later DS igavanias this was an issue especially in Order of Ecclesia where such weaknesses were crucial to survival.
Post by allooutrick on Nov 5, 2015 20:20:12 GMT -6
I can't imagine how a purely no UI would work in a game like a metroidvania (though if they figure it out and make it work well then I'll be quite impressed). I personally like the idea of a fading UI for when there are no threats nearby but I also wonder how likely that is to be. Igavania's have some sort of creature in nearly every room. Maybe a fresh option would be to display changes to the stats as the changes occur like -poison in green text to signal you are cured of poison, a colored bar that deplete's over Miriam's head when her hp or mp drops accordingly, a special effect (like Alucard's glow) when her mp is back at max. Nothing wrong with a classic hp and mp bar in the corner either.
Post by purifyweirdshard on Nov 6, 2015 8:41:34 GMT -6
Oh, let me just go back and say I completely understand what Astaroth meant now. No, potion/MP restoration hotkeys while you're fighting just sounds unnecessary. I think that may be precisely why potions have start-up in SotN and you have to actually walk forward to eat dropped food. The recovery effect being instant is kind of lame, in comparison. This did happen in the DS games, but those recovery items were usually for pretty small amounts and limited in quantity. I recall we had a thread talking about this stuff a while ago, was it in difficulty?
Anyway, a hot-swap of equipment sets...I don't know. I kind of like navigating the menu each time, as if the character is actually taking time to put something different on. A lot of the time, I'd rather endure the challenge of using my favorite equipment instead of changing to whatever's optimal anyway. The swapping would make it feel more like a serious gear-based RPG, which I don't really feel it should be...
Of course, the option being included in and of itself wouldn't bother me all too much, so long as I could avoid it without any detriment to how I classically play the games.
Post by LegallyBlindGamer on Nov 6, 2015 15:35:55 GMT -6
Perhaps spells could have a cooldown period before you can use them again, like in Xenoblade Chronicles. This would keep players from spamming them if the quick item use includes items that restore a lot of MP.
As for menus in general, I recommend checking out this video from William Strife for some examples of how various games handle their menus and how these choices affected gameplay.
I can't imagine how a purely no UI would work in a game like a metroidvania (though if they figure it out and make it work well then I'll be quite impressed). I personally like the idea of a fading UI for when there are no threats nearby but I also wonder how likely that is to be. Igavania's have some sort of creature in nearly every room. Maybe a fresh option would be to display changes to the stats as the changes occur like -poison in green text to signal you are cured of poison, a colored bar that deplete's over Miriam's head when her hp or mp drops accordingly, a special effect (like Alucard's glow) when her mp is back at max. Nothing wrong with a classic hp and mp bar in the corner either.
actually, that gives me an idea, if theres a rose flourish by the hp/mp bars, maybe the rose changes color based on status, and the color drains out as the status goes away, like green for poison [stat drain], purple for curse [mp drain], red for bleeding [hp drain], etc
Satoru Iwata: "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer.” Game on Iwata-san quack
actually, that gives me an idea, if theres a rose flourish by the hp/mp bars, maybe the rose changes color based on status, and the color drains out as the status goes away, like green for poison [stat drain], purple for curse [mp drain], red for bleeding [hp drain], etc
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