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Post by RichterB on Aug 11, 2018 14:33:06 GMT -6
I'm going to do my best to break down what I'm getting at here. What does the term Metroidvania mean to you? Owlboy, Ori, Hollow Knight, Axiom Verge, Cave Story, etc...and most recently Dead Cells. The term "Metroidvania" is flying left and right across the media. And obviously, the progression of many of these games come from a style that is primarily either Super Metroid of Symphony of the Night inspired, so I understand the temptation. Especially when so many games are coming out in this style. But I am personally getting a little annoyed for a few reasons:
1.) Metroidvania is as clunky and misleading a term as "Castleroid," and I don't recall anyone deciding one over the other...until, suddenly, yep, it's "Metroidvania." It's convenient, but we don't call platformers "Marios." i.e. "Crash Bandicoot is a great example of the Mario genre." We don't call JRPGs "Dragon Quests" or "Final Fantasies," either, despite a lot of what they established.
2.) Each one of these games has a very different flow to it. What appeals to the so-called "Metroidvania" fan is going to be different, because the term is so ambiguous. Is it the item-gated world? Is it the power-ups? Is it the leveling up? Is it the way the map fills in on screen? Is it the methodical gameplay? Is it the attention to atmosphere? Is it the maze-like level design? Is it a shop mechanic? Is it the inventory menu? Is it the fact that it's 2D? (I mean, a lot of that could be used to describe a game from the Legend of Zelda series, too...even the leveling up, which you do literally in Zelda 2, but have done more of more in a roundabout way with combat-rewards crafting in later Zelda titles, though we even had "Level 2, etc." items listed at least as early as Link's Awakening, and maybe even as early A Link to the Past depending on how you look at it.)
3.) This is the biggest annoyance: The term Metroidvania has become a synonym for Castlevania. Something like Dead Cells comes around, and people say it's the best Castlevania in a long time: "Dead Cells Might Be The Best Castlevania Game in Years...Is it the perfect evolution of the Castlevania formula? Probably."~IGN's NVC. That's a complete distortion of understanding, likely based on someone having only played Symphony of the Night or one of the GBA or DS entries, or just disregarding everything before them after doing so. Just talking about one aspect, the combat: All the bragging about the combat and how it evolves things would be like me saying giving Mario a machine gun and a parry made the combat in Mario Bros. so much more satisfying. Part of Castlevania's core inherent structure is limitations so that levels can be crafted in a fashion that forces you to plan ahead and strategize how to overcome obstacles and enemy placement.
I've actually realized the so-called "Metroidvania" actually has its roots in Vampire Killer for the MSX. It had inventory items like keys, shields, boots; maze-like stages; a shopping mechanic; and a map you could find and pull up on screen. And Simon's Quest largely continued this, even having the character leveling up. So when talking about Castlevania, it shouldn't really be Classicvania and Metroidvania, it should be Castlevania or Vampire Killer, primarily. And since there's already that kind of gradation so early on, with two different names, it doesn't help to tell people nowadays through insinuation that if it's not Metroidvania it's not Castlevania. And if the two are synonymous, it really doesn't start to add up. Because I don't think you'd say that Axiom Verge is a Castlevania game any more than you'd say Contra is a Mario game.
I don't know that I was able to gather my thoughts here clearly enough. I'm still solidifying them, really, and I'm not sure how far I want to take this. But I was curious if this bothers anyone else in any way. I imagine, again, that if your first Castlevania was a so-called Metroidvania, than that's largely what Castlevania means to you. That's understandable. But it's also sort of gradually re-writing history via the media when they use Metroidvania more and more and start to equate it with Castlevania. (Sort of like if one said the Battle Network Mega Mans were the primary definition of Mega Man.)
I don't have anything more to say about this right now, so I'm just opening this up for discussion.
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Post by freddythemonkey on Aug 11, 2018 15:37:26 GMT -6
Genres exist to simplify the user's research for something he might like.
Despite the fact that "metroidvania" is not as vague a term as "action adventure" for example, and derives itself from the name of actual games, it IS still very useful because when I read "metroidvania" I (usually) know exactly what kind of game I'm reading about and I know I'll probably enjoy it. I say usually because the only problem there is with the term is its misuse, but that's a problem with every genre and subgenre in games, music, cinema and pretty much everything than can be subdivided into genres.
So Dead Cells to me is no metroidvania, because the exploration is so minimal and it lacks pretty much every element of the genre, despite having a map and having some items that open some areas (for what it's worth in that game).
So I don't think there is any problem with the term per se. Purists of the games it's originated from may be slightly annoyed in the broadened meaning of the term during the years, but it's a normal evolution and the annoyance is far outweighted by the sheer usefulness of the term. Much like "roguelite", it doesn't really matter if it evolved from "like" to "lite" and thus doesn't STRICTLY mean "like Rogue" anymore, because it's now a broader term useful for recognizing some key characteristic of the game defined by the term.
Not everyone may like "metroidvania", but it's undeniably useful and mostly precise as a definition. It may be misused but that problem is unsolvable, with every genre label.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 23:19:23 GMT -6
2. It's true that Metroid and post- SotN Castlevania have rather significant differences (enough to make a fan of one potentially dislike the other), but what they have in common stands tall: - 2D
- nonlinear exploration
- collect-able items/abilities that allow you to explore even further
Whether a game leans closer to "Metroid" or "vania," I would still absolutely consider it a Metroidvania if it had those three things. Of course, there are arguments that this description is too close to Zelda, and I would probably agree if 83.3...% of the current mainline 2D Zelda games weren't so linear. 3. I think you're touching on a larger problem: some games journalists have an unfortunately small reference pool. Keep in mind, " Crash Bandicoot has become Dark Souls." is an actual phrase from an actual, professional review.
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Post by Overlord on Aug 12, 2018 7:07:36 GMT -6
Back in 2013 I started to notice some games were being labeled as "Metroidvania", which was really exciting since I obviously love Castlevania. Some of them just don't feel like Metroidvanias though, and none of them feel like Castlevania. Dead Cells is being labeled as a Metroidvania pretty much everywhere, but I've already seen some people say something along the lines of, "It's 90% Roguelite and 10% Metroidvania". I don't really like Roguelites, so there's a good chance I won't like the game even though so many people are calling it a Metroidvania. All you can really do is read about each game and figure out what it is yourself.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Aug 13, 2018 7:59:48 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2018 11:46:40 GMT -6
way more Metroid than vania. Usually focuses on action and skill trees, combo systems and blocking Admittedly, I don't really associate many of these things with Metroid either. Sure, Samus Returns had that awkward counter system, but that game was desperately trying to look hip and cool in general and I dearly hope the next 2D games won't be like that. That's a rather fair point, though I guess I just see it differently. I see Metroidvania as a family name, describing a family of games. Even if you closely resemble your mom and don't have a lot in common with your dad, there's still at least a small level of association. Though, it's important to recognize my bias here. While I prefer Metroid just a bit, my love of the "Metroidvania" subgenre doesn't owe much specifically to either parent. For me, the core appeal is the nonlinear exploration. Anything else the developer chooses to include is just an awesome bonus. In general, I'm only ever disappointed with a Metroidvania if it's too linear (or if I don't like the story/characters, but that applies to any genre). In terms of taxonomy, I'm also more of a lumper than a splitter.
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Post by RichterB on Aug 13, 2018 13:36:40 GMT -6
I appreciate these insights, everyone.
I've come to realize in the last couple of years that I think "Metroidvania" has become a separate genre now. It used to mean these CV games, but now it's a whole lot of stuff that's way more Metroid than vania. Usually focuses on action and skill trees, combo systems and blocking - things that Castlevania doesn't have in the 2D games, the Igavanias. Progression unlocks are also usually more important in these newer Metroidvania titles. Conversely, IGA's CV games are more about being open, exploring and collecting things. Almost what you'd say is a 2D side-scrolling RPG collect-a-thon. I realized this when I saw people asking to speed Bloodstained up and give it a combo system, blocking, etc. That's not what it is. However, that is certainly what "Metroidvania" has mostly become in the indie space, which is all more very Metroid to me. In this, I think that we can safely carve out Igavania as being the real genre we're looking at for Bloodstained and retroactively IGA's older games. So many times now, someone has said "ooh new Metroidvania, check it out man", and it's generally this other thing, not what I've been looking for. It was a smart move to right off call this game by its own true genre, "Igavania". Yeah, Metroidvania has definitely taken on a lot more attributes that have little to do with either game in the name it seems.
The ironic thing is, speedy gameplay, combos, and blocking aren't consistently a part of Metroid. In terms of speed, the Metroid games were relatively slow until Fusion and especially Zero Mission. The Prime games are more the pace of what Metroid was (but I wish they'd have a 3rd-person option to increase gameplay variety). I think Other M and Samus Returns were the only games to flirt with combos and blocking, though not really in any more serious capacity than SotN, by and large, with its own shields and hidden special move combos.
If not for the RPG elements--item drops, a shop, leveling up with experience points--Symphony of the Night is really just "Gothic Super Metroid." Those pieces, which were prototyped/sampled in earlier games like Vampire Killer MSX and Simon's Quest, are the only reason to have the "vania" part on this new genre's title. Otherwise, it's just Metroid--specifically Super Metroid. But that's what makes it all the more odd that "vania" is specifically used, because it gives the false impression that all Castlevanias are Metroidvanias, and that the definition of Castlevania is Metroidvania, which is kind of like a snake eating its own tail and a chicken or the egg problem.
To this day, a lot of Castlevania fans really don't like it and/or the direction it took things (even a few people here). I commonly see in Facebook groups folks elevate even Castlevania 64 or the OG Gameboy games over SotN for (I'm assuming) their purity and closer adherence to the legacy. SotN was in itself originally an offshoot side game that became a standard thing to their chagrin, and thrived onward in its own larger realm than the classics. I'm glad you mentioned this. I'll be honest, while I enjoyed the SotN-style games a lot, especially Circle of the Moon and SotN, by the time we got to the DS, I felt they'd run their course. I didn't like that the franchise got stuck in a rut in a new hybrid genre where platforming was relegated to more casual fair, the uniqueness of whip-driven gameplay was either downplayed or never built on (which IV and Bloodlines had only just started to do), players were given more and more powers, and the atmosphere and art direction seemingly downplayed Gothic-Horror for more eccentric elements (sometimes, anyway. This is hard to quantify, it's just the sense I get. I think it's connected to how the "world mythology" started to be the more dominant motif, perhaps).
I can see why these choices were made, but Castlevania became less and less recognizable to me, and apparently the public forgot there was anything other than SotN. What that meant was I really couldn't expect for a more core Castlevania experience, except in well-intentioned and amusing half measures like DXC, Rebirth, and even kinda-sorta Curse of the Moon. What I appreciated greatly about Castlevania 64, especially in retrospect, was how it was trying to marry all aspects of Castlevania together. It had exploration, action- platforming with death pits and moving obstacles and dangerous enemy placement, inventory items both disposable and crucial, a shop, whip-driven gameplay (but still alternate characters for different kinds of experiences), alternate stages, alternate bosses and endings, and it had a real spookiness to it that put Gothic-Horror up front. Not to mention it did it in 3D, rough around the edges at it was. (The Beta and pre-Beta even hinted at more aspects, including item crashes and getting back to exploring the whip's usage for things like swinging over gaps. The interviews from this time also talked about a potential town with NPCs).
IGA's insistence to try to meld his version of "Metroidvania" with ground-and-pound stuff like Devil May Cry after all that CV64/LoD tried and in many cases succeeded at was deflating for me as a Castlevania fan. I did enjoy a lot of aspects of Lament of Innocence for what it was regardless, but Curse of Darkness was one step forward, two steps backward. It exacerbated a lot of what was problematic in LoI in terms of level design. It meant I was all the more unlikely to see a return to some of what I thought were core Castlevania tenants. And once Lords of Shadow came and was another "one step forward, two steps backward" deal, I couldn't believe it. For all its touted understanding of Castlevania, LoS really wasn't much better than LoI/CoD, and in some ways seemed worse.
So this Metroidvania era prolonged Castlevania's life, and redefined what a Castlevania game is for many, but whether because of bad budgets, or just a feeling of staying in a comfort zone, or perhaps a lack of confidence in other kinds of level design, it also bottlenecked the franchise into a corner. It seemed like more and more gameplay systems were experimented with and tacked on versus changing the fundamental idea of level design. Portrait of Ruin was the first real opportunity to break the franchise loose again into something that could have both linear action-platforming/dynamic event stages (the portraits) where anything could happen without hurting the non-linear/backtracking integrity of the exploration stages (the castle); and yet, nothing really changed. It was just bite-sized exploration areas stitched together...in a way, it was like a 2D LoI.
Now, I'm very much on board for Bloodstained because I know it has more Castlevania DNA in it than 99% of games out there, and it will offer a Classic Mode, which should be interesting to see executed. Also, IGA added more ethereal and elegant touches to the Gothic-Horror motif as his CV games went on, and I appreciate that aesthetic, even if I think it sometimes goes too far compared to highlighting the core Castlevania aesthetic. (Less so was I crazy about the overt humor.) But you know what, Bloodstained, as it's own thing, has every right to explore what it wants to now. As IGA made the series more and more about magic wielders, it started to border on becoming its own thing, I feel. And I think the sword winning out over the whip in Bloodstained, through whatever means, kind of shows that it had become its own thing. Even so, based on the demo, it at least feels like a more balanced and thoughtful exploration experience in terms of how the rooms have integrated some better platforming, so I think it's probably the best version of the core SotN/AoS experience one could hope for at this point in time, and its limits on some gameplay elements keep it closer to some of Castelvania's core tenants than some of the more recent so-called "Metroidvanias" at large.
I think "IGAvania" really became its own thing (separate from the so-called Metroidvania) with Aria of Sorrow, when the Tactical Soul System was introduced. That sort of magic system seems to be a bread-and-butter attribute now. But what's ironic about that is it basically comes from the Dual Setup System in KCEK's Circle of the Moon--take and remix powers from enemies. IGA made it less cumbersome, but that's where that idea originated from in Castlevania.
Regardless, the trend continues that Dead Cells is the best "Castlevania" game recently, in case you didn't know:
"Dead Cells is the best Castlevania game in years" ~ The Verge
3. I think you're touching on a larger problem: some games journalists have an unfortunately small reference pool. Keep in mind, " Crash Bandicoot has become Dark Souls." is an actual phrase from an actual, professional review.
The lack of history about some of these franchises bugs me probably more than it should. But it does. Yes, SotN was great and it was a game-changer, but please, reviewers, play and/or have something like Castlevania III or IV in mind as well when you throw out game names.
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Post by akahige on Aug 23, 2018 22:46:23 GMT -6
I feel it's a very misleading term that most of the time could be avoided simply by referencing "non-linearity".
Other than being awful to ears, I suspect It greatly distorts facts, to the detriment of both series really. I'm pretty sure non linearity action adventure doesn't begin with the NES...
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Aug 24, 2018 10:10:10 GMT -6
Other than being awful to ears, I suspect It greatly distorts facts, to the detriment of both series really. I'm pretty sure non linearity action adventure doesn't begin with the NES... Dungeons & Dragons? heh
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Post by akahige on Aug 24, 2018 11:36:47 GMT -6
Other than being awful to ears, I suspect It greatly distorts facts, to the detriment of both series really. I'm pretty sure non linearity action adventure doesn't begin with the NES... Dungeons & Dragons? heh No need to go that far. Even remaining in videogames, H.E.R.O. comes to mind, and there must be plenty of others. The term is coined by console gamers... It reflects their narrow experience.
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Post by ghaleon on Aug 26, 2018 16:04:22 GMT -6
Dead cells is great, but I wouldn't call it a metroidvania at all, and certainly not a castlevania. That said I find the misuse of the term isn't half as egregious of how roguelike is misused, use roguelite people, it's there for a reason, and not to hate on casuls or something.
I would call hollow knight a metroidvania though, a good one too.
I don't know the other examples well enough to say.
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Post by anubis on Aug 30, 2018 9:21:38 GMT -6
I agree, I only use the term "MetroidVania" if it is a Castlevania game just as I always have. Now on the same note the misuse of Open World is annoying but that would probably be a different topic altogether.
EDIT.
I just realized I have been a member of this forum since it started but have only been here twice.
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Post by Zechs on Aug 30, 2018 10:39:07 GMT -6
To me, Metroidvania is a sales pitch and not really a game genre.
Blaster Master is in the same category but is decidedly not labeled a Metroidvania.
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Post by rav4ishing on Aug 30, 2018 15:15:40 GMT -6
Like a few have already mentioned, I think Metroidvania has become more of a marketing term because of it's recent resurgence. Some of the older gamers that played SotN when it was first released, such as myself, are very excited to see this resurgence. But there in lies another problem... Because we're excited, reviewers will use the term on their reviews. This makes me click on the review when I'm thinking about buying these games. This in turn gives them more page hits. Because we're excited, game publishers will use it to market the game so that we're more encouraged to buy it. Personally, I've experienced some disappointment due to this marketing hype. For example, Salt and Sanctuary is constantly a game mentioned as a highly suggested Metroidvania title. After I bought it, it really didn't capture the essence of what I feel is Metroidvania (admittedly I lean more towards SofN). I gave that game a solid hour or two to get a handle on it, but I still don't enjoy it. $18 down the drain. I also bought Chasm on the night it was released. The game started out really, really good. I remember how excited I was to find the long sword. However, half way through the game, two things got in the way of it being really awesome: level design and music. The issue with Chasm's level design is that since the developers went for procedurally generated levels, the stages felt way too generic. One of the best things about SofN and PoR was level design. Even within one stage, some rooms felt like you were in a completely stage all together. Think of stages like the Marble Gallery. The last path taken before entering the Outer Wall felt like a different place; or also consider the Castle Entrance before entering the Alchemy Laboratory. Procedurally generated levels in theory are meant to increase replay-ability, but in practice for me at least it didn't work out that way. I've had no interest in playing the game again after I finished it the first time. The music wasn't memorable. Again, SotN takes the cake for this because just search for SotN music on YouTube and you'll find musicians inspired by the soundtrack that they've re-created their own rendition of the music (anyone recall the guy that played the Long Library music on two pianos?). And who can forget Tears of Blood? Chasm's music became more of a background noise for me. I don't mean it as an insult, it simply wasn't anything I find myself humming to. Finally, one more point. The Castlevania world is sort of fortunate IMO because it's augmenting a source material that has stood through the test of time. Who doesn't know Dracula? Most of Castlevania finds inspiration from Dracula folklore. Iga, and Konami at the time, simply augmented this with some original ideas. Having a baseline story we can relate to, plus adding some new twists, makes the story more relatable and ultimately more enjoyable to play. By original ideas, I am referring to Alucard, the entire Belmont Clan, the Morris Clan, etc. For games like Salt & Sanctuary, Chasm, etc...I simply can't relate to it. God bless the creators for attempting originality, but personally it doesn't work for me. Bloodstained is doing something similar with it's world. The story is inspired by actual history when the human population was going through a major shift. Iga has taken that idea and added his own twist to it. This kind of shift is something most adults can relate to (think of something like certain jobs becoming obsolete due to software automation and AI, or simply outsourced to a countries with cheaper labor).
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