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Post by CastleDan on Jul 5, 2017 8:10:30 GMT -6
Considering your great work fatihG i agree with CastleDan . I think palletw swap, for both Summoning Trigger Shards and Familiars, would work best. You can see the details of the demon and still using the demon as your own thing. It happened in almost all Igavanias with familiars based on Demons. Now, talking about Familiars as a whole, sside from Curse of Darkness, whose game system was completely focused on Familiars, for me, the best approach to familiars, both visually and gamepla-wise was Dawn of Sorrow.On Dawn of Sorrow, Familiars had different behaviours. Not all of them simply floated around. You had familiars locked at Soma, like Alura Une (a naked woman plant) that wrapped herself around him with tentacles all around hitting enemies. You had familiars that completely change their looks by leveling, like Mini Devil (turning from a small devil to a female devil throwing hearts at enemies) and so on. And all of them were just pallete swap versions of their original enemies. It could be a crystalized pallete version (like Original colours, crsytal effect + white outlines of fatihG 's art). Sotn's familiars seem overlooked in that regard. I mean not only did the familiars serve different gameplay functions but they had voices, they had personalities...they were the whole shabang. It's the only reason I never cared for the ones in the DS games because they didn't feel like little friends instead they just felt like another soul you collected that adds defense or what have you. Another reason I liked SOTN's is not all of them were just enemies from the game, the ghost for instance is something new entirely look wise, the fairie the same thing, and the sword familiar, the demon familiar were all different...the only thing that was an actual enemy taken straight from the game was the bat. I agree with you that you can utilize familiars in ways other than floating around your character and that is definitely something they can look at Dawn as a great example but I hope they don't overlook one of the few games that utilized them in a way that made them feel like real pals to your character. Lol I wish I remember Curse Of Darknes and it's familiar system, I'd like to compare that as well but ...I haven't played the game in forever.
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Devil Forgemaster
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Post by fatihG on Jul 5, 2017 12:03:06 GMT -6
Well to explain why I would go with CA...
The game designers obviously intend for Miriams powers to be based on crystals. So the summons are crystal manifestations.
Id much rather see a crystalized version of the original creature with its original colours (or with a palette swap if it gets hard to read) than a generic 'random' blue blue colour.
The 'clear' crystalized form still gives a semblance of the original creature. Like it is obviously drawn from it.
The magic blue outline (or any other colour for that matter) is for it to look like it is controlled. So the player will not confuse it with an enemy. The differently coloured outline distinguishes it from the original creature itself as well.
--- Just checked out the demo and vids again. Her powers being crystal based doesnt seem to be consistent at all. The throw bone and throw spear powers are simply using the original model and textures. It is not a crystalized version. So why they chose to go with the weird blue textures for the familiars make no sense to me.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 5, 2017 13:25:46 GMT -6
Well to explain why I would go with CA... The game designers obviously intend for Miriams powers to be based on crystals. So the summons are crystal manifestations. Id much rather see a crystalized version of the original creature with its original colours (or with a palette swap if it gets hard to read) than a generic 'random' blue blue colour.
The 'clear' crystalized form still gives a semblance of the original creature. Like it is obviously drawn from it. The magic blue outline (or any other colour for that matter) is for it to look like it is controlled. So the player will not confuse it with an enemy. The differently coloured outline distinguishes it from the original creature itself as well. --- Just checked out the demo and vids again. Her powers being crystal based doesnt seem to be consistent at all. The throw bone and throw spear powers are simply using the original model and textures. It is not a crystalized version. So why they chose to go with the weird blue textures for the familiars make no sense to me. Yes yes yes. It just looks ugly to have a solid color all over the character. It wipes away all of the detail and look of the summon which kinda kills the enjoyment of seeing different abilities or familiars to begin with.
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
Fifty Storms
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 5, 2017 14:24:34 GMT -6
Glow / Outline The glow / outline (same same) seems nice. Other palette ontop would be nice too, but not required if it takes too much time. This would also only apply on enemies we can summon or attack with.
The Knight Familiar The knight familiar which won would probably only have one special color, perhaps other colors if he leveled up and be treated like the rest of the familiars / summons with a glow / clear outline.
Make Backer Familiar Vote Special Also, to make the backers vote "Knight" more special, he could be the one and perhaps the only one we could change colors on, as a bonus. This ofc if there would be time to fix this feature, making him "stand out" among the bunch.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 5, 2017 14:29:05 GMT -6
Well to explain why I would go with CA... The game designers obviously intend for Miriams powers to be based on crystals. So the summons are crystal manifestations. Id much rather see a crystalized version of the original creature with its original colours (or with a palette swap if it gets hard to read) than a generic 'random' blue blue colour. The 'clear' crystalized form still gives a semblance of the original creature. Like it is obviously drawn from it. The magic blue outline (or any other colour for that matter) is for it to look like it is controlled. So the player will not confuse it with an enemy. The differently coloured outline distinguishes it from the original creature itself as well. --- Just checked out the demo and vids again. Her powers being crystal based doesnt seem to be consistent at all. The throw bone and throw spear powers are simply using the original model and textures. It is not a crystalized version. So why they chose to go with the weird blue textures for the familiars make no sense to me. Especially considering the original demo had an Amy Summon and it was a pallet swap which from my memory no one criticized. I just hope to god they go back to the actual textures or that this is just something being done because stuff isn't finalized.
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 5, 2017 14:54:32 GMT -6
One community feedback from one of the facebook groups - (By a person called Adrian Gallardo) "Having only seen the E3 gameplay, I thought that particular familiar were Blue. But watching it again, I can see that it would appear to have that summoning aspect essence to them. Like they are not 100% real compared to their original counterparts. I really don't mind that much about the whole one color familiar, unless there's player exclusives ones that can evolve like the ones from Symphony or Curse of Darkness-then I would want them to be "colorful"." Figured it would take part here. Source, if you are a part of the group on FB: www.facebook.com/groups/968812016483870/permalink/1602048226493576/UPDATE 2 I showed FB group the image, got reply: Holden Kesselring: I'm really digging CA and CD
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fatihG
Devil Forgemaster
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I am the morning sun, come to vanquish this horrible night!
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Post by fatihG on Jul 5, 2017 17:15:54 GMT -6
Well here is the thing about the 'proper' familiars.
If they are creatures that decide to help you out, like the knight familiar (or the devil/faerie familiar from SotN), you dont need to absorb them as a crystal, and they are just 'buddies that help you out'.
For the other creatures, that are actually your enemies, you can absorb their power. Since they are not actually helping you out, but Miriam is using her own powers to materialise these summons, it would be in the shape of crystals.
But again, it is inconsistent the way it is right now. The Bones and Spears that Miriam uses in the 2017 e3 demo, she materialises them out of nowhere as well, however these are not crystallised. She is literally pulling out an actual spear out of thin air.
So what should happen in my opinion, either crystalise everything in the style of CA for things that Miriam uses with her crystal powers. (summons, projectiles, etc.) Or make everything use their original model with perhaps a colour swap. So the 'blue familiars will just use their original textures, like the bones and spears do at the moment.
I should really go into the 2016 demo files and do a quick little test of... I just dont have time at the moment T_T
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 5, 2017 19:06:22 GMT -6
I just feel like it looks lazy. I'm not trying to be mean but just being VERY honest with my criticism. Take the familiars in SOTN, imagine if they were all completely blue. Imagine if all the summons in Dawn of Sorrow were exactly the same color. It's just boring as all hell and seems like a cheap way to avoid putting detail into things. I've been pretty easy going on this game as I've liked pretty much everything but this was easily one of the few things that made me go .... wait what? I can't imagine a cool design like this - turned into a completely blue crystal like everything else you summon. it's just a waste of cool art design.
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Devil Forgemaster
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Post by fatihG on Jul 5, 2017 21:00:45 GMT -6
turned into a completely blue crystal like everything else you summon. it's just a waste of cool art design. I agree: The second image seems to be what we are getting at the moment. It just a random crystal texture being applied to the model. If they decide to keep going with the blue crystal look however, I at least hope some of the original texture shines trough the crystal texture. (bottom pic)
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 5, 2017 21:15:44 GMT -6
Yeah it's better with some detail showing through but in the grand scheme it still will make for a less varied visual experience. Thanks for the visual help you really help drive the point home with all these examples
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Pure Miriam
Legendary Comrade
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[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
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Post by Pure Miriam on Jul 6, 2017 2:10:59 GMT -6
Sotn's familiars seem overlooked in that regard. I mean not only did the familiars serve different gameplay functions but they had voices, they had personalities...they were the whole shabang. It's the only reason I never cared for the ones in the DS games because they didn't feel like little friends instead they just felt like another soul you collected that adds defense or what have you. Another reason I liked SOTN's is not all of them were just enemies from the game, the ghost for instance is something new entirely look wise, the fairie the same thing, and the sword familiar, the demon familiar were all different...the only thing that was an actual enemy taken straight from the game was the bat. I agree with you that you can utilize familiars in ways other than floating around your character and that is definitely something they can look at Dawn as a great example but I hope they don't overlook one of the few games that utilized them in a way that made them feel like real pals to your character. Lol I wish I remember Curse Of Darknes and it's familiar system, I'd like to compare that as well but ...I haven't played the game in forever. ABOUT SYMPHONY OF THE NIGHT
I do like the personality of SOTN's familiars, i was talking more about game mechanics. And even so, some familiars from Dawn actually have that too, like Mini Devil. She always talks when you summon her and she throws cute hearts at enemies, i mean lol, and Alura une, that looks like a clingy yandere girlfriend attached to Soma to the point she doesn't let him walk ABOUT CURSE OF DARKNESS
About Curse of Darkness, well, just as a reminder for you (and for anyone that never played it) Curse of Darkness has it's familiars as the game's magic system. It's called Devil Forgemaster. Hector (the game's hero) can forge weapons and armos using demonic materials taken from demons and he can also control a specific type of demon called I.D (Innocent Devil), neutral demons in nature that can be tammed by forgemasters. When you find a new type of I.D, you can use it as familiar. They level up and have several skills that you can find around the game. They can change forms depending on the type of crystal you feed them. Those cyrstals are taken from enemies and the crystal type the enemies drops depends on what kind of weapon you are using to kill them. Killing enemies with a Sword makes them drop red crystals, while killing them with a Axe makes them drop blue crystals and such. There was even a secret white crystal that you could only get with some "special" weapons. They can have huge change in their forms. The Battle type starts as a Lava Golem and can reach the form of a armored Knight or a even bigger Rock/Crystal like Golem, for instance. The Battle type fights alongside you, doing combined combos with your weapon attacks. The Fairy type can give stats effects to enemies and heal you, while the Mage type can attack with magic and so on. Sometimes they give you an egg so you can grow another one of their same type at LV1 so you can grow more familiars to different forms. In all Igavania games, Curse of Darkness Familiars were the most elaborate simply because they were the game's whole magic system. Aside from them, Hector can't do nothing besides fightning with weapons and forging equipment. Well here is the thing about the 'proper' familiars. If they are creatures that decide to help you out, like the knight familiar (or the devil/faerie familiar from SotN), you dont need to absorb them as a crystal, and they are just 'buddies that help you out'. For the other creatures, that are actually your enemies, you can absorb their power. Since they are not actually helping you out, but Miriam is using her own powers to materialise these summons, it would be in the shape of crystals. But again, it is inconsistent the way it is right now. The Bones and Spears that Miriam uses in the 2017 e3 demo, she materialises them out of nowhere as well, however these are not crystallised. She is literally pulling out an actual spear out of thin air. So what should happen in my opinion, either crystalise everything in the style of CA for things that Miriam uses with her crystal powers. (summons, projectiles, etc.) Or make everything use their original model with perhaps a colour swap. So the 'blue familiars will just use their original textures, like the bones and spears do at the moment. I should really go into the 2016 demo files and do a quick little test of... I just dont have time at the moment T_T THE NATURE OF SHARDS
I think you misinterpreted a bit what Shard System actually is. The first Shard you get, gives you this sentence: "Demon power that has been crystalized. It cannot be handled by a ordinary person". Shards are demon power crystalized. Not demon power AS crystal. It's like a box. You have a box with a cat inside. The cat was "boxed". The box is NOT the cat, it just contains the cat inside of it. Shards aren't the magic itself, they just CONTAIN Demon magic inside of them. That's why, when Miriam uses them, the powers themselves aren't crystalized. At least,that's how i see things.
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Devil Forgemaster
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I am the morning sun, come to vanquish this horrible night!
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Post by fatihG on Jul 6, 2017 3:20:04 GMT -6
THE NATURE OF SHARDS
I think you misinterpreted a bit what Shard System actually is. The first Shard you get, gives you this sentence: "Demon power that has been crystalized. It cannot be handled by a ordinary person". Shards are demon power crystalized. Not demon power AS crystal. It's like a box. You have a box with a cat inside. The cat was "boxed". The box is NOT the cat, it just contains the cat inside of it. Shards aren't the magic itself, they just CONTAIN Demon magic inside of them. That's why, when Miriam uses them, the powers themselves aren't crystalized. At least,that's how i see things. If that is the case, than there really is no reason for the familiars/summons to be crystallised at all.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 6, 2017 8:11:35 GMT -6
Sotn's familiars seem overlooked in that regard. I mean not only did the familiars serve different gameplay functions but they had voices, they had personalities...they were the whole shabang. It's the only reason I never cared for the ones in the DS games because they didn't feel like little friends instead they just felt like another soul you collected that adds defense or what have you. Another reason I liked SOTN's is not all of them were just enemies from the game, the ghost for instance is something new entirely look wise, the fairie the same thing, and the sword familiar, the demon familiar were all different...the only thing that was an actual enemy taken straight from the game was the bat. I agree with you that you can utilize familiars in ways other than floating around your character and that is definitely something they can look at Dawn as a great example but I hope they don't overlook one of the few games that utilized them in a way that made them feel like real pals to your character. Lol I wish I remember Curse Of Darknes and it's familiar system, I'd like to compare that as well but ...I haven't played the game in forever. ABOUT SYMPHONY OF THE NIGHT
I do like the personality of SOTN's familiars, i was talking more about game mechanics. And even so, some familiars from Dawn actually have that too, like Mini Devil. She always talks when you summon her and she throws cute hearts at enemies, i mean lol, and Alura une, that looks like a clingy yandere girlfriend attached to Soma to the point she doesn't let him walk ABOUT CURSE OF DARKNESS
About Curse of Darkness, well, just as a reminder for you (and for anyone that never played it) Curse of Darkness has it's familiars as the game's magic system. It's called Devil Forgemaster. Hector (the game's hero) can forge weapons and armos using demonic materials taken from demons and he can also control a specific type of demon called I.D (Innocent Devil), neutral demons in nature that can be tammed by forgemasters. When you find a new type of I.D, you can use it as familiar. They level up and have several skills that you can find around the game. They can change forms depending on the type of crystal you feed them. Those cyrstals are taken from enemies and the crystal type the enemies drops depends on what kind of weapon you are using to kill them. Killing enemies with a Sword makes them drop red crystals, while killing them with a Axe makes them drop blue crystals and such. There was even a secret white crystal that you could only get with some "special" weapons. They can have huge change in their forms. The Battle type starts as a Lava Golem and can reach the form of a armored Knight or a even bigger Rock/Crystal like Golem, for instance. The Battle type fights alongside you, doing combined combos with your weapon attacks. The Fairy type can give stats effects to enemies and heal you, while the Mage type can attack with magic and so on. Sometimes they give you an egg so you can grow another one of their same type at LV1 so you can grow more familiars to different forms. In all Igavania games, Curse of Darkness Familiars were the most elaborate simply because they were the game's whole magic system. Aside from them, Hector can't do nothing besides fightning with weapons and forging equipment. Well here is the thing about the 'proper' familiars. If they are creatures that decide to help you out, like the knight familiar (or the devil/faerie familiar from SotN), you dont need to absorb them as a crystal, and they are just 'buddies that help you out'. For the other creatures, that are actually your enemies, you can absorb their power. Since they are not actually helping you out, but Miriam is using her own powers to materialise these summons, it would be in the shape of crystals. But again, it is inconsistent the way it is right now. The Bones and Spears that Miriam uses in the 2017 e3 demo, she materialises them out of nowhere as well, however these are not crystallised. She is literally pulling out an actual spear out of thin air. So what should happen in my opinion, either crystalise everything in the style of CA for things that Miriam uses with her crystal powers. (summons, projectiles, etc.) Or make everything use their original model with perhaps a colour swap. So the 'blue familiars will just use their original textures, like the bones and spears do at the moment. I should really go into the 2016 demo files and do a quick little test of... I just dont have time at the moment T_T THE NATURE OF SHARDS
I think you misinterpreted a bit what Shard System actually is. The first Shard you get, gives you this sentence: "Demon power that has been crystalized. It cannot be handled by a ordinary person". Shards are demon power crystalized. Not demon power AS crystal. It's like a box. You have a box with a cat inside. The cat was "boxed". The box is NOT the cat, it just contains the cat inside of it. Shards aren't the magic itself, they just CONTAIN Demon magic inside of them. That's why, when Miriam uses them, the powers themselves aren't crystalized. At least,that's how i see things. Right right. I was making the point that SOTN's familiars had the most personality and they felt like actual little friends WHILE not sacrificing function and mechanics. Both qualities excelled quite a bit, neither felt really lacking. I always bring the game up because it clearly was the champion of the 'little details'. You don't move for a while and the fairie sits on your shoulder and sings, familiars having voice samples not just for being summoned but for a host of things, each one had there own purposes, little details like the sword familiar becoming a weapon at a certain level. It felt like a thought-out system with lots of subtle details. With Dawn's familiars the personality felt for the most part taking a back seat to whatever mechanics they might have. Which is why I said they felt more like your typical souls rather than authentic familiars. With your refresher of COD's system it also looks quite deep too. Weird that I forgot a lot about it, maybe I just never liked the designs of the familiars in that game, they looked quite bland. Goofball is an example of a well designed familiar, something you'll remember and doesn't feel like a throwaway familiar. The thing I love about Bloodstained so far is it seems to take all of the BIGGEST strengths from each game so maybe that's why I've been incredibly content with everything I've seen.
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Post by crocodile on Jul 6, 2017 11:38:26 GMT -6
I think something that has been a bit downplayed, and probably the biggest reason why the familiars and trigger attacks are crystallized and monocolor, is because it makes them easier to distinguish from the enemies they come from. Palate swaps can be dangerous both because I do expect some palate swapped versions of early game enemies to be enemies in the late part of the game and also it would be harder to distinguish your attacks/familiar from the real thing if they were in the same place if they look too alike. Some of the strong outlines some have suggested might alleviate this issue though.
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Enkeria
Silver in the Dark
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Post by Enkeria on Jul 6, 2017 12:18:07 GMT -6
How I envision the familiars and the shifting of "other tier of same monster", using this guy as an example, just to state my design-point, nothing else.
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 6, 2017 12:27:51 GMT -6
I think something that has been a bit downplayed, and probably the biggest reason why the familiars and trigger attacks are crystallized and monocolor, is because it makes them easier to distinguish from the enemies they come from. Palate swaps can be dangerous both because I do expect some palate swapped versions of early game enemies to be enemies in the late part of the game and also it would be harder to distinguish your attacks/familiar from the real thing if they were in the same place if they look too alike. Some of the strong outlines some have suggested might alleviate this issue though. You're right it's a valid concern but there's already been plenty of examples posted by fatihG that are 100% more imaginative without falling down the pitfall of being boring or samey. Not that I think a simple palette swap isn't good enough as they've been used in gaming since for as long as I remember. The ABSOLUTE best way to deal with this problem at least for the familiars themselves is to make them unique. Goofball for instance doesn't need to be an enemy in the game and therefore you don't have to worry about differentiating. Was the Demon in SOTN a rip of something? Was the Fairie? Was the ghost familiar? They had things LIKE them but nothing exact. The only thing that looked similar from what I remember was the bat and I hardly remember it being a complaint. Hell, in the first demo Amy WAS a palette swap! There's solutions to the problem but using a completely blue crystallized version is probably the most boring way to handle the problem. Now there could be REASONS for the look. Maybe it's the first form for a lot of these summons and when they level up they show more of their actual texture or something... if that's the case then I'm cool with it. If this is all there is to it though, it feels very strange.
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Post by Astaroth on Jul 11, 2017 10:31:21 GMT -6
i think having a bluish palette swap with a unique glowy aura would be the be the option i choose, it not only lets you see the difference of the enemy and the unique aura makes it stand out from the other enemies, but it also has the effect of letting you admire the enemy model itself, how it moves, its 'personality' in that movement, all the work that went into that enemy is on display
i will use familiars because theyre useful in watching my back, but to be able to use a familiar for its little quirks or occasional interactions would make a useful system all that much more endearing
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purifyweirdshard
Administrator
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Jul 11, 2017 11:01:37 GMT -6
I'm probably not going to use the familiars unless they have some degree of personality like the SotN ones. The assistance they offer is usually pretty minimal and more often than not would more or less just clutter up the screen for me. Even beyond that, I prefer to deal with things alone for challenge's sake.
I'd be down for quality over quantity with them, as with SotN. Even the bat and imp had personality. The beautiful thing about them too is that even though they were developed to be that way, they were entirely unnecessary.
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Shadow of the Night
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Jun 9, 2015 16:58:57 GMT -6
June 2015
jeffcross773
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Post by JeffCross on Jul 14, 2017 17:37:39 GMT -6
I'm probably not going to use the familiars unless they have some degree of personality like the SotN ones. The assistance they offer is usually pretty minimal and more often than not would more or less just clutter up the screen for me. Even beyond that, I prefer to deal with things alone for challenge's sake. I'd be down for quality over quantity with them, as with SotN. Even the bat and imp had personality. The beautiful thing about them too is that even though they were developed to be that way, they were entirely unnecessary. I agree purifyweirdshard I want my familiars to have personality... but seeing how many shards there will be, I doubt that will be the case. what if they have like 3-4 special familiars that have more personality AND were not blue... some monsters/creatures you can make an actual pact with and THEY can be their own color... but its cool I understand this is the way the team went. but I would hope for better partners in the future of the series...
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inherit
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Jun 28, 2019 21:35:13 GMT -6
1,291
CastleDan
1,514
May 28, 2015 9:50:13 GMT -6
May 2015
castledan
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Post by CastleDan on Jul 14, 2017 19:47:57 GMT -6
I'm probably not going to use the familiars unless they have some degree of personality like the SotN ones. The assistance they offer is usually pretty minimal and more often than not would more or less just clutter up the screen for me. Even beyond that, I prefer to deal with things alone for challenge's sake. I'd be down for quality over quantity with them, as with SotN. Even the bat and imp had personality. The beautiful thing about them too is that even though they were developed to be that way, they were entirely unnecessary. I agree purifyweirdshard I want my familiars to have personality... but seeing how many shards there will be, I doubt that will be the case. what if they have like 3-4 special familiars that have more personality AND were not blue... some monsters/creatures you can make an actual pact with and THEY can be their own color... but its cool I understand this is the way the team went. but I would hope for better partners in the future of the series... I hope they have personality otherwise why have them?
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