Lestaroth
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Post by Lestaroth on Apr 11, 2017 10:20:54 GMT -6
Hello hello, Leth again here. Given that we now have not one but two characters in charge of a shop, a further discussion about the latter is now fully relevant. I am well-aware there is an thread on the matter, bloodstainedfanforums.com/thread/759/bloodstained-shop by Pure Miriam but I'd rather not play necromancer on it. I will not talk about forging mechanics and materials either, as there are covered in very good threads. I'll rather focus on buy and sell mechanics, ways to spend and regain currency and also how rare items could be considered. Well then! Let's get to the subject, shall we? ...I have seen a variety of shop types in the games I played notably those in the RPG category (and its variants) being my favorite type of games. Buy ("Buy Somethin' will ya!"):Most of them will ask you to determine a number of an item before you buy it. I am all in favor for it, since I don't see myself clicking over and over to get what I need.* That said, I noticed some games in which you can buy a bundle of said items not only to make the process faster, but also to possibly save on the total. You can see that in the Shantae games. Sell ("A precious family heirloom"):Selling is about the same, except that I felt you don't need to use the confirmation process, unless you grinded so much that you'd need to get rid of all of these short swords, leather armors and circlets you found from low-ranking monsters... I don't see players selling potions to make ends meet on a super shiny costly weapon either, but who knows. Needless to say, I'd want for the item about to be sold/bought getting a confirmation. Other elements:A comparison between the armor piece and the one you're about to buy with little arrows pointing up, down or on the side. Basic, but essential. Item descriptions. A fitting room, with Miriam trying the new armor/weapons. Maybe an action button to see the weapon in action. Armor pieces that are actually worn and shown (like in Soul Calibur III to V), something else than the lame color palette swaps... One can hope. ^^ More uncommon shop services:
I bought it by mistake! Can I get a refund?
In some games you're allowed to buy the item back at full price in a separate list (if it is recent. It would be a very limited list. The usual mechanic is selling an item for half-price). Great if you bought or sold by mistake. It would be fun for Anne and Dominique to be miffed at the player if he/she overuses that system for trolling reasons. Getting hit? Getting services denied for a little while? Getting trolled back? You decide! We too offer price rollbacks!In Tales of Zestiria, some shops will give a special deal on a piece of equipment, for a limited time. Very arbitrary, not useful, but who knows, if you are extremely lucky? (You can also seemingly get stuff for cheaper the more you're familiar with a certain shop. Irrelevant here since there is only one shop in game, unless...) I found this rare shiny in my attic!Some rare items can be bought in games like Shining Force I and II, from time to time. They're unique deals that are generally worth investing in. It's time to identify this mysterious item you got...For a fee, you get some strange items identified. It would be nice you don't lose money in the end. Maybe you could find some revelation potions in the shop (Rune Bottles in Tales of Phantasia). Get me this, this and this and I'll give you a cool weapon/armor/accessory!Quests. What else? Hey, have this freebie!Free common stuff from time to time. We've also thought of opening a pawn shop section...
I wouldn't be in favor of this. I prefer the refund system suggestion stated above. It could work for one item anyway. A character needing to gather all money back before being able to commerce again wouldn't do good either. I'll let you borrow this weapon my family used for generations, since you're worth it!Separate from a quest reward, this one would save you the trouble of getting it in the castle. Far from the ultimate piece of equipment. Useful if you're needing a boost in defense or offense. Better than anything you get until this point. Better not have bought any gear from the shop before the event happens (this is where the "sell the item back for no fee" is relevant. Let's have a little chat.I would love to have a little story on how the shop was created (I'd want Anne to do it for her parents' sake and to be able to lead a relatively normal existence besides the current mayhem), why money still makes sense in a world invaded by demons, to get more character backstories and hints on items, why not an achievement for it... But how to return to the shop in a convenient way?That should be simple. Put a warp point in the village, easily accessible early in the game. Problem solved! (I don't think the CSOTN library card could do here, let's be original in Bloodstained) That's all I could think about for now! Leth *(Amusingly enough and slightly off-topic, in the first two Breath of Fire games, there was a strange item management system, in that you could carry all the potions you needed, but only nine max each "inventory block". You could then go past the 99 limit easily. Of course it will be irrelevant nowadays).
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Post by Dev Anj on Apr 12, 2017 11:08:25 GMT -6
Honestly, I think Deus Ex did shops the best, and it wouldn't hurt to see that. In sum, what it did was give some people a limited stock of items you could buy and made it such that beyond a point, you didn't have access to them any longer.
Anyhow, what would be interesting to see is shopkeepers having limits to what you can sell to them, such as a jeweler not letting you pawn armor since they can't do anything with it, while a blacksmith would glady accept it, at a very reduced price of course. Being able to barter in some cases instead of using money could be interesting too. Like I said, giving some Deus Ex style shops could be good too, especially if the items sold force you to make a choice between vital supplies and unique stuff that can have a notable impact on gameplay- if you use them right.
Last, but not least, please don't make it viable to farm money in the game. All talk about an interesting economy will go to the drain if money is basically near infinite in the world.
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Post by purifyweirdshard on Apr 12, 2017 11:12:42 GMT -6
My dad is a shop mechanic.
He has a little shop outside his house and works on cars. I could think of suggestions to give him, but I doubt he'd listen.
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Post by anonthemouse on Apr 12, 2017 12:37:29 GMT -6
I actually think that most, if not all of this, sound like the quintessential shop, in my opinion. The only thing I could really add is that it would be nice to see our (the players) efforts have an impact on the shop in some way. For instance, being able to rescue people or find items in the castle that allow the shop to expand its inventory or offer better deals. An example of such might be a printing press that you somehow bring back, and items like books and maps become cheaper, or after rescuing an apprentice alchemist who got trapped in the castle, a wider selection of potions becomes available.
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Lestaroth
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Post by Lestaroth on Apr 12, 2017 23:08:49 GMT -6
Thanks for your replies! To Dev: I guess that a limited stock is great for a game that will make you manage items in a much survival mode way. I don't think it could fit Metroidvanias. As for a shop having nothing to sell after a while, it becomes something like a counter to discuss at (and there would be no drinks around). Of course, you don't sell auto parts at a jeweler. That said, in RPGs and so on, you can sell the merchant about anything and he/she/it will spit coins back at you. The funny part is that I consider them as black holes as well. Once you sell them one item, you're bound to never see it ever again. In Bloodstained, it will once again be a general shop, so having to sell items to the specific shop category will not be relevant. To purifyweirdshard : Ah, our parents' generation. Let's try to not contradict them too much. At least we got some degree of freedom compared to them when they had to deal with their own parents (our grandparents). ...I'm really getting off-topic there. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". To anonthemouse : Yes, I did not delve on quests, but of course they would help the shop develop further. I'd want some villager NPCs to be implied in that too, it's not like Anne and Dominique are skilled in everything. Let's say you find some gadget, show it to Anne and then she contacts one of the villagers that is able to fix it. Quest completed in a realistic way! Some quests could allow you to go further indeed, but sometimes they can constitute a real drag, as you'd be forced to do it to progress in the game... unless you mean alternate sections of the castle, which could get very interesting.
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Post by Dev Anj on Apr 13, 2017 0:09:24 GMT -6
I don't see why you can't have such shops in an open ended platformer; if anything I think it will lead to more meaningful choice and better world building. Deus Ex was already pretty famous for offering quite a bit of choices through emergent gameplay, and its levels were very open with some points of no return. So this system can easily apply to an open ended game too.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Apr 13, 2017 1:52:21 GMT -6
Well, let me give my two cents.
The buying and selling, equipment comparison mechanic is pretty basic, there is no need to change that. About armor showing up on her, i'm sorry to disappoint you but that is not going to happen. It is too resource consuming. Many games doesn't do that, because they consider the character's design to be part of it's own personality. You can change the armor visually of Dragon Age character's, you can have alternative options on Soul Callibur, you can change some of the clothing in Final Fantasy X-2 and Lightning Returns, but you can't do that in most other games. Getting a refund to buy something by mistake is usual in many games and i think it never showed up on Igavanias, but to be honest, i think it has a good reason for that. Most Igavania games are completionists, so, there is little point to add a refund option if you bought a weapon that you don't really need, because a lot of players are aiming to have everything (and some of them, reaching the cap with everything). Special discount prices on specific equipment can work, but i remember that Aria of Sorrow had a soul power that could cut down prices in around 20%. Maybe this is best suited for a Enchant Shard or a special equipment. About rare items, i think they are WAY better suited for finding on game and dropping from enemies, rather than showing up randomly at shop. About unknown items, i also think that is a good idea BUT i also think they wouldn't do it. When the Shard system was being developed, at first IGA wanted the player to get a new Shard but it would only be usable after maturing it with alchemy. Later on, it seems they gave up on that idea because the team thought it would be frustrating to pick a new power that you can't use it right away. I think they probably have the same opinion regarding equipment. The game will have quests. Tied to the shop, most probably. I don't understood what do you mean by the pawn shop thing. Event to get equipment, i have the same opinion as above. Let rare and powerful equipment, story-wise equipment and such, to the castle and enemies and events there. Giving a backstory to the shop is something i would like it too. Aria and Dawn of Sorrow had teleports close to their shops, so, that is a good idea too. MY SUGGESTIONS
Well, for the most part, i think the shop could be what it was in most Igavanias, i just have some small suggestions regarding the Anne and Dominique dynamic and Shop upgrade. I think there must be a difference in shop when Dominique is there, to when Anne is there. Or there is no point in making them change places sometimes. It could be prices or inventory, quests or something else, but it must have a difference. About the shop having new items, i like the Order of Ecclesia route, where you actually did quests to upgrade the shop inventory, as long as they are not too hard to do it.
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Post by crocodile on Apr 13, 2017 7:15:20 GMT -6
What I'm mostly curious about is if the shop will actually be useful. In most Igavanias, in normal gameplay, there is no need or reason to ever visit the shop. The game usually isn't hard enough and you can find enough items or equipment over the course of normal gameplay to preclude the need to visit the shop. I wonder if things will be different this time - as in the game is designed and balanced in such a way to encourage you to use the shop but not force you to do a lot of backtracking there as well (at the very least provide a quick warp back to it). It will be tricky but we will see.
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Lestaroth
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Post by Lestaroth on Apr 13, 2017 7:22:28 GMT -6
To Dev: Once again, those could work in hardcore mode and/or in a game where every item counts. Developers must have gotten a clear idea on this right now. I'm sure that these could work so well in horror/survival games. To anonthemouse and Pure Miriam The usual mechanics of shops are not to be changed, they're an essential part to a successful RPG/MMORPG/other genre/genre hybrid. I just wanted to list all possibilities we got with some of them being worth considering. I guess I was a bit all over the place when writing this thread. To Pure Miriam only: Well, I guess we will have costumes anyway, so the lack of display of different armors won't be a problem. I guess that it could be a reality in a few console generations? You say that the recovery/refund mechanism exists in a bunch of other games? I guess I missed that. Do you have any interesting examples to give me? Please, thanks. Yes, usually it is a general discount, but the way to get it is generally well-hidden. The one soul in Aria was the Tsuchinoko (aka the japanese weirdass snake cryptid). The rare items could be something else than equipment or items. They could be simple trinkets or costumes. I don't know how to really make a shop interesting when you don't visit it for item resupplying, otherwise. The pawn thing was a joke from me, as in you'd really need coins and you'd put an item as guarantee. You wouldn't be able to buy anything until you'd give the needed coin amount back. Surely not a good idea, unless you are looking for trouble. The rare item would be an alternative form of a quest, being automatically completed. That said, it wouldn't need to be that rare, just a way to be a bit stronger for a little while. I wanted to make the life of the village a bit more dynamic this way. Yes, a difference between Anne and Dominique as store clerks is needed. They would be quite the placeholder-likes otherwise. That said, I don't expect radical changes on this. To crocodile : Yes indeed, you didn't need to shop much in past Igavanias. You could upgrade equipment from time to time and stock potions before and after a boss. The item system in CSOTN especially was terrible when it came to potions. Food using was even worse. But again, there were so cheap ways to get HP recovery it was laughable. Monsters always were predictable and most were just waiting to get slain. Still I remember that the poison status was horrific in Circle of the Moon. I wish I had more antidotes in my inventory back then.
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Post by Pure Miriam on Apr 13, 2017 7:29:15 GMT -6
to be really honest Lestaroth i saw the refund option in quite some games i played, but i can't remember none of them right now. I think this is more usual in MMOs and since i played quite a lot, i got confused. About the pawn shop, i get it now. I always like to open discussions like you do, but i'm in a lack of ideas, everything was discussed already and so i decided to post here to have something to say, since your discussion was interesting
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Post by Lestaroth on Apr 13, 2017 7:41:15 GMT -6
to be really honest Lestaroth i saw the refund option in quite some games i played, but i can't remember none of them right now. I think this is more usual in MMOs and since i played quite a lot, i got confused. About the pawn shop, i get it now. I always like to open discussions like you do, but i'm in a lack of ideas, everything was discussed already and so i decided to post here to have something to say, since your discussion was interesting Yes, one modern MMO had this as a feature. That said, MMOs always have NPCs with terrible buying rates so recovering a drop sold by mistake sure is no problem... It's always welcome a feature still, that I guess I haven't seen in offline games. I also remember about some old games having merchants that won't even bother buying your items back, or only buying specific kinds of valuables *Slams CSOTN Librarian's desk* Thank you. The feeling is reciprocal. I'll be waiting for your next thread (No need to rush on it! Quality first).
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 13, 2017 9:24:34 GMT -6
Dominique, specifically, works on behalf of the Church, right? (If I recall correctly, her occupation is "exorcist") Other than what crocodile already suggested (which I think would make perfect sense), I have three suggestions for shop mechanics. 1.) Relating to Dominique's position, perhaps you can "pay" her in the form of actually relinquishing Shards for her to research and "purify". Maybe Dominique would be the only source of specific elemental resistance items (outside of special scarves and/or armor that grants pure MIND-stat bonuses which Miriam might find or craft). 2.) Starting a New Game+ could unlock some items in the Shop that can't be found anywhere else. The items unlocked could be different, depending on both difficulty (Normal, Hard, or Nightmare) and who's running the Shop at the time (Dominique or Anne). 3.) How about introducing Silver as an alternative currency to the usual Gold in this game? Miriam, at some later point after entering Gebel's Castle, might need it as money for purchasing unique equipment imported from Asian countries (best example being, since Bloodstained is set in the late 18th Century: Qing Dynasty China). Certain weapon types from Far-Eastern countries offered at the Shop (such as Katana-type weapons) could force Miriam to acquire Silver instead of Gold to buy them. (Notes about the role of Silver: Alongside Gold, the desired end of many an alchemical experiment in real-world history, Silver has been extensively used as a medium in alchemical experiments, due to being a more reactive metal than Gold.) ^ For the vast majority of Imperial Chinese history, or so far as I can claim to know, Silver has been more highly valued than Gold for a very long time ( ingots of silver were still used as currency even 20 years after Imperial China was finally replaced by the Republic of China; up until 1935). This is especially because Silver naturally formed as a "native metal" (pure elemental metal; not mixed with other elements or an alloy) is actually a rarer occurrence than Gold as a native metal. I would not be surprised at all if the development team decides not to include my 3rd suggestion, and opt for more familiar Shop mechanics. #3 is one of my more "out there" ideas.
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Lestaroth
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Post by Lestaroth on Apr 14, 2017 5:53:32 GMT -6
To Galamoth : 1) That would actually be interesting, as farming shards could have a use beyond the "let's get the most of them so my skills/passives get more powerful" extremely usual mechanic. Equipment, monster components but also skills pile up and so many of them end being unused after a while and this in so many games. We do have forging so the first two will always have their use (a blessing for completionists). While combining skills would add a layer of complexity so well that people would think Bloodstained's a mad experiment, this use of shards could get much relevance. If Dominique ends playable, she should be able to do that by herself. Of course she won't be able to use them. 2) Duplicatoooooooooor~ *spams Power of Sire and Bat Pentagram* ...Fireworks! *ahem* It really was a crazy item. I don't think that farming money and jewels in CSOTN for that was fun enough, though. *Sends the Librarian flying towards the Moon* Later, old man. 3) I'd love an alternate currency for different services. That surely would make enemies drop a lot of stuff that better be well-explained in a tutorial accessible anytime. MMOs have been using that system for ages, but that is tied to real money usage, which may be not fair most of the time. You tying currencies to alchemy is a great touch as well.
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Post by crocodile on Apr 14, 2017 6:15:24 GMT -6
A) I think a refund mechanic is unnecessary and adds needless complexity. How long would you have to wait to get a refund? Under what circumstances would you want one? If you want a "refund", just reset your game B) Adding an additional currency just to buy special items sounds more obnoxious than it sounds fun in this particular context. If what you're trying to represent are imported items, just make them cost more money (import "tax"). If I'm buying something from a foreign land I use the currency of the country I'm currently in to purchase it, not the currency of the source nation. If you need other things to collect, don't forget the forging system the game will have that will necessitate the collection of different monster parts/shards. I see no reason to add another type of currency on top of all this.
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Post by Lestaroth on Apr 14, 2017 7:28:03 GMT -6
To crocodile : 1) Of course it would be wiser to save before shopping. But again, some don't do that. This is where the idea shines. It would be instantaneous. It would be present as a separate tab, with few entries (the most recent ones, with a limit of three to five items). 2) Taxes, in a world where demon do whatever they want? Hmm. Equipment should be costlier only if it is more effective. Galamoth submitted a good idea still, because it would allow and explain the existence of foreign elements in the game. It's not like Zangetsu would go to England alone and unprepared, right? That said Galamoth, you put Imperial China in the mix and Zangetsu is Japanese. Let's not mix the two for diplomatic reasons. I'm sure it's not that complicated... let's just place them in the list while their cost would require that extra resource. To prove this, in this screenshot of Shantae: Risky's Revenge, you can see red pots and a number. The red pots are magic jam (found in treasure chests) and the number is gems (in-game currency). The two spells and the attack power-up require both, while the rest of the items only cost gems. Needless to say, there is no way to sell items in this game, yet gems are super easy to get. Risky's Revenge is a Gameboy Color game, so it's far from difficult to implement in the end, right? And yeah... faster whipping. I know.
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 14, 2017 8:47:47 GMT -6
Lestaroth To clarify, I know what nationality Zangetsu is. I used Imperial China as a "best" example for explaining why Silver would be used as currency, considering China used Silver for that purpose for the longest time. ^ Silver was even used for coins in the Middle East and in India (though, for the latter, not nearly as long). More importantly, Silver has even been used in Alchemy. In both Europe and Asia, I believe.
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Post by Lestaroth on Apr 14, 2017 9:06:35 GMT -6
Lestaroth To clarify, I know what nationality Zangetsu is. I used Imperial China as a "best" example for explaining why Silver would be used as currency, considering China used Silver for that purpose for the longest time. ^ Silver was even used for coins in the Middle East and in India (though, for the latter, not nearly as long). More importantly, Silver has even been used in Alchemy. In both Europe and Asia, I believe. Oh, obviously. Precious metals and gems have been used in crafting, trading and other research for immortality. It's easy to see how important they would be in alchemy.
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Post by crocodile on Apr 14, 2017 10:15:31 GMT -6
A) The question you should be asking isn't "can I do this?" but rather "should I do this and why?". What benefit is there to adding an additional currency? Is there not already enough things to collect in the game? What problem are you solving? Is it more fun? Those are the questions one should ask and as far as I can see adding an additional currency doesn't really accomplish much.
B) Refunds seem to solve a problem that doesn't exist. If you can only refund something JUST after you purchase it then just don't make that mistake in the first place? It seems hard to accidentally buy something. You would also never buy non-consumable items unless you were about to use them in the game and if you could buy something, use it, find something better and then return the older used item for full price that seems like it would wreck the game economy?
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Post by Galamoth on Apr 14, 2017 17:56:30 GMT -6
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Legendary Comrade
Shardbinder
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
Posts: 1,068
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Legendary Comrade
445
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Oct 20, 2019 3:32:00 GMT -6
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Pure Miriam
[TI1] "A new, vital heart, pulsing with the old blood." -IGA
1,068
Jul 25, 2015 2:19:20 GMT -6
July 2015
puremiriam
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Post by Pure Miriam on Apr 15, 2017 1:06:05 GMT -6
Although i really like Galamoth idea, it is really creative, i agree with crocodile on this. I was thinking about this these days by the way. Let's take a note: Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night have shards, crafting materials, usable items, equipment and money (and maybe, quest items) and ALL that can be drop from enemies. That alone is already a ton of things and enemies at this game already look like walking christmas presents with such a load of things to drop. I think adding more drop items could make everything too convoluted and confused. Galamoth idea on puryfing Shards is great. That reminds me a bit of Yoko and her role in Dawn of Sorrow to fuse souls into equipment and freeing them. Consuming Shards to forge specific equipment not found anywhere else is a great idea to give them another functionality.
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